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  1. #1

    Default Chaos Dwarf

    Tried the new faction and wanted to share some thoughts. Its not really a guide.
    I would say, this is an easy faction. When you capture bunch of goblin strongholds and start to build mines, you will swim in money. I have not encountered any script invasions against Chaos Dwarfs, and against no-script armies its all pretty simple. By the time I got rid of eastern Dwarves, Gobs and Orks, Chaos Undivided started a massive invasion, and they are allied to me, and I cant attack them, so it seems the game is as good as finished. Maybe I should play as the imperial next time to really experience the storm of Chaos.
    Its a turn 86.


    Chaos Dwarves have two starting spots on the east of the map - one at North, and one on extreme south. That leads to simultaneous expansion in two different directions. At north I left the Goblins be for a while and attacked rebel/dwarf/elf strongholds on the coast. I moved all the way to some "tower" settlement and stopped there, didnt want to overextend. One full stack was enough to accomplish it.
    At the south Orks attacked me right away. I built the army, grabbed the closest rebel settlement and then moved on Orks, hard. After taking Ork capital, Goblins came, so I had to exterminate them too.

    I say, 90% of all my victories was because of Chaos Dwarf Blunderbuss. Those units have relatively short firing distance, and they can be a pain to position, after putting them I have to zoom in on each unit to see if anything is obstructing their view. Also, they miss most of the time if they shoot down, so the leveled plain is ideal.
    But when they hit, oh man! Its not unikely for them to wipe out half or two thirds of a unit. If you are against low-morale armies like Orks or Gobs, they will most likely run away, and even highly armored dwarfs would stop their charge. In one of the battle against several full stacks of goblins my 3 units of blunderbasses scored about 1500 - 2000 kills each.

    Now, they are awesome, but they have limitations. They can be recruited only in dwarf settements, have high requirements and two turns to recruit. When in battle, they are very slow. Very. They dont have "skirmish" option, and also have trouble running away if engaged. And they have to be on front to do any damage, so you have to find the right time to move your meatshild from behind. When in hand-to-hand, they suck. And to replace them, you have to transport them from provinces far away.
    They have short firing range, so you have to have a unit to counter the enemies archers.
    Also, they dont do very well against highly armored enemies. Regular infantry? No problem? Charging Black Orks? You'll stop the charge at most. Knights on armored horses? You are screwed. Trolls? Forget about Blunderbuss, bring lots of orks instead to burry them in bodies. You might also speed the game up to x6 speed and go make yourself some coffee - it will take a while for your orks to chew through 12 hp and 30 armor.

    Artillery helps a lot. I dont use Chaos Cannon as much - too inaccurate, and the ark of fire is very shallow. If it hits it destroys everything, but it never hits. Fortunately, the new artillery pieces do their job perfect.
    Death Rockets have very long range, average accuracy, and can attack enemies at angles. They also have very high damage against buildings for some reason.
    Earth shaker cannons are very useful too. Unfortunately, its not a mortar, its a cannon, but its angle of attack is something in between, so you can hit from behind the walls. The firing distance is rather small. But the shell of this cannon has a unique property - when it hits, it does little damage, but that is followed by a delayed underground explosion. The shock wave not only disrupts the enemy formation, it is also highly deadly to all standing at impact place, killing up to half of the unit. I found it to be the best weapon to deal with trolls - send 1 unit of orks to attack to keep trolls busy, and order your Earthshakers to fire at trolls. Watch them fly. Repeat.
    Just watch out against Shamans - they easily out-shoot your Deathrockets.

    You can also occasionally recruit Chaos Trolls and Chaos ogres at the Dogs of War camps - very expensive, very powerfull.

    The rest of the army is nothing special. Chaos dwarfs warriors are upped version of normal dwarfs with higher morale. Orks are orks. Hobgoblins are something in between goblins and orks, they dont wear armor but have higher defence skill. They have one unit though, Sneaky Gits, who have high attack and skill and can hide anywhere - those are very usefull for ambushes.

    Too bad the best cavalry available is Hobgoblin wolf riders. Slow, weak, unreliable. IIRC, Chorne Juggernauts were built by Chaos Dwarves, but you cant build them. Also, in the table version you apparently could recruit some flying fire-breathing bulls. I guess the team didnt have enough time to implement them. Oh well.


    I also think that Chaos Dwarves should not be able to recruit Orks and Black Orks. Yes, they are awesome, but it goes against the lore.

    Regarding the game in general it is still very pron to crashing. I save every turn, before and after each battle - saves me a lot of brain cells.
    Several buildings have corrupted description (blacksmith 2 I think, and sewers 2 and 3), if you click on them the game will crash, but it is easily fixable.
    There was one very annoying bug, though - I took all the eastern ork settlements, when Chaos Undiveded launched an attack through the ork lands. They script-attack your settlements even when they are allied to you, and restore the alliance after the attack. Fortunately, they dont have any siege engines and dont build any siege towers or ladders, so if you chose to fight manually you win as they cant reach you.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Chaos Dwarf

    Zing , if you have time , why you don't write a Chaos Dwarf Guide follow the format in Kurgis's topic This will very helpful , because many people will play this new faction after the translate released .
    ░░░░░███████ ]▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▃
    ▂▄▅█████████▅▄▃▂
    I███████████████████].
    ◥⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙◤
    This is Total War !!!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Chaos Dwarf

    I might later if noone else would do it.
    But this thread is intended more for discussion of this new faction. Do you like it? Do you hate it? What would you add or remove? How is the balance? That sort of thing.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Chaos Dwarf

    Yes , I like your post . But I don't have much to talk since I just play some custom battle in 1.5 .
    In early version , play as Khorne , I had hire the Chaos dwarf merc but I never realise that the Blunderbuss have so much firepower like you said . Maybe I will test it tonight .
    About balance . If you have taken 1/3 of the map , swim in money and said that it's easy , Why don't you attack Chao Undivided ?
    And can you tell me how the diplomat system work in 1.5 ? How the computer can restore the alliance after they attack your city ?
    I still wait for the translate so your answer will help a lot
    ░░░░░███████ ]▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▃
    ▂▄▅█████████▅▄▃▂
    I███████████████████].
    ◥⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙◤
    This is Total War !!!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Chaos Dwarf

    I had hire the Chaos dwarf merc but I never realise that the Blunderbuss have so much firepower like you said.
    I guess when you have nothing else except Chaos Dwarves, you start to learn how to use them efficiently. I remember when I tried them as Nurgle in 1.4.4 I was not impressed. They are slow, they miss all the time, sometimes they just refuse to shoot - what the hell, I thought, I would rather hire couple chaos warriors and crash my enemies in hand-to-hand! Especially if you fight other highly armored chaos warriors - blunderbuss is weak against armor.
    Also, I have an impression they might have been redone - maybe increased the number of particles, or something. It might even be a bug or typo somewhere, like, I suspect damage vs buildings 1000 for the death rocket is. I just tried a custom battle for normal dwarves, and I can say that Chaos Dwarf blunderbuss is more powerfull and much faster than dwarf cannon set to fire shrapnel. When I have more than 3 units of blunderbuss firing at the same time my screen shakes and games noticeably slows down.
    Here is a screen, one unit of blunderbuss (cost 1750) against one unit of Chaos Warriors (cost 2000). While Chaos warriors were charging, dwarfs were able to shoot twice. Less than 20 warriors managed to engage in melee. And died.

    If its a bug, I will be sad when that will be removed - it really feels awesome when the entire enemy unit melts before you.

    About balance . If you have taken 1/3 of the map , swim in money and said that it's easy , Why don't you attack Chao Undivided ? And can you tell me how the diplomat system work in 1.5 ? How the computer can restore the alliance after they attack your city ?
    Script. I cant attack them because I am locked in an alliance and I have no diplomats. They attack via script, but then auto-ally themselves to me.
    I wish I could attack them. Oh well, maybe Empire will be able to come back, or Chaos will betray me... I guess I'll just clean up the elves first.

  6. #6
    Reiksfart's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Chaos Dwarf

    Sounds to me like chaos dwarfs were not implemented very well. More of a case of throw a new faction onto the map and forget about making them interesting to play with or against. With all their target factions already up to their necks in scripted conflict it's no wonder chaos dwarfs are easy.

    I honestly expected more from the faction and for it to not be filled up with non-lore units from the orcs, and I definitely expected them to be fully integrated into the campaign rather than just stuck onto the map without a lot of thought.

    Still, it's given me some ideas for my own mod.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Chaos Dwarf

    Quote Originally Posted by Reiksfart View Post
    Sounds to me like chaos dwarfs were not implemented very well. More of a case of throw a new faction onto the map and forget about making them interesting to play with or against. With all their target factions already up to their necks in scripted conflict it's no wonder chaos dwarfs are easy.

    I honestly expected more from the faction and for it to not be filled up with non-lore units from the orcs, and I definitely expected them to be fully integrated into the campaign rather than just stuck onto the map without a lot of thought.

    Still, it's given me some ideas for my own mod.
    No , to me Chaos Dwarf in 1.5 is more than I can imagine . The team had made a very beautiful and lore wise faction .
    I don't play Chaos Dwarf campaign yet so I can't say anything , but if it so easy , of course the team will make it harder in the next patch .
    And you must understand that in Chaos Dwarf faction , Dwarves are noble like Vampire in Sylvania . You don't want to see a vampire army with vampire are core unit , like Vampire archer . Vampire spearmen . vampire crossbow . Same with ChaosDwarf , you can't just create some unit like "Black Dwarf" , "Chaos Dwarf wolfrider" "Hobdwarf archer" "Hobdwarf spear"

    Furthermore , Chaos Dwarf are slave master and their slaves is Black Orc and Hobgoblin . The reason why the orc faction have Black Orc is because they mess up and runaway from their master . So you say that Chaos Dwarf "filled up with non-lore units from the orcs" is incorrect .
    ░░░░░███████ ]▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▃
    ▂▄▅█████████▅▄▃▂
    I███████████████████].
    ◥⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙◤
    This is Total War !!!

  8. #8
    Werebear's Avatar For Mother Russia
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    Default Re: Chaos Dwarf

    Quote Originally Posted by Zing View Post
    I also think that Chaos Dwarves should not be able to recruit Orks and Black Orks. Yes, they are awesome, but it goes against the lore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reiksfart View Post
    I honestly expected more from the faction and for it to not be filled up with non-lore units from the orcs,

    omg... READ THE ARMYBOOK

  9. #9
    Reiksfart's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Chaos Dwarf

    I was not talking about black orcs so much as the chaos dwarfs being able to recruit other orcs as someone above posted. Even then, after the black orc rebellion which almost destroyed zharr naggrund it's unlikely black orcs would be a significant part of a chaos dwarf army because they are too strong willed. The only greenskins who should be a major part of their army are the hobgoblins, who sided with the dwarfs during the rebellion.

  10. #10
    Kahvipannu's Avatar Bring me Solo & wookie
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    Default Re: Chaos Dwarf

    Great reading Zing, +1

    About balance tought, I think they will be tweaked in the future, they just got added. Also with Reiks mod they will be harder to play once it is ready.

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=494799

    One thing I noticed too, the Blunderbusses are insanelly deadly. They are fun to fight against, since one mistake, and you will pay dearly My Chaos warriors dropped like flyes against bunch of them

  11. #11
    Werebear's Avatar For Mother Russia
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    Default Re: Chaos Dwarf


  12. #12
    Reiksfart's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Chaos Dwarf

    All right, so some white dwarf articles show otherwise. Still lazy on their part and not the lore I remember. Just how stupid are these new chaos dwarfs to lead not only black orcs, but orcs and goblins too when in the past their empire was almost destroyed by the black orc uprising. Don't learn much do they?

    Oh well. Some of the older books were more interesting and I may use one of those for my mod.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Chaos Dwarf

    Lore you say?

    At the young years of WH chaos dwarf story goes like this:

    They were seperated from Karaz-Ankor, and refuse to get back to the domain, they claimed that the "normal" dwarfs just abandon them, and betray. So they turned to the dark gods, just to survive on hostile lands, by any mean necesary. They used the orks to fight their way, and as their slaves, they even BREAD A NEW RACE OF ORKS, the BLACK ORKS as a masters of their smaller kin. (just like in Tolkiens middle earth, the uruk hai) But the orks have mute against their former masters, and the mute was leaded by the black orks them self. After a long and bloody fight dwarfs get ride of the orks, and replace them with hobgoblins, more cunning but less strong race of orks, who to not seek any chance of betray the chaos dwarfs.

    This is a short version, read the WFRP 1ed manual, and it's addons, it is all there. Right now the black orks are just a bigger, and older version of normal ork, any of them can became the black ork, if got a luck, and skill to live long. But this mode just get from all the sources, put any interesting unit they can find, from any version of WH, it is not their fault that by the years lore was changed by 180 degree, and i don't mind it, quite the oposite, i admire them for their interest in WH, and reaserch ability.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Chaos Dwarf

    In the lore Black Orcs were created by Chaos Dwarfs. Yes, most of them rebelled but I don't think it is lore breaking that the Chaos Dwarfs were able to keep some of them as warrior slaves. I do wish that the mod has Immortals as described here:

    http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/wiki/index.php/Immortals

    As well as bull centaurs and the Chaos Dwarf sorcerers that slowly turn to stone due to Dwarfs as a race not being able to handle using magic like other races do. Perhaps that will be in future mods. Just to have playable Chaos Dwarfs is a huge win/win for all of us.
    Basil II Emperor of Byzantium, Bulgar Slayer


  15. #15
    Reiksfart's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Chaos Dwarf

    I agree, it's not lore breaking. I read somewhere they still rule over some black orcs who are not allowed entrance into their city, plus they are not considered as slaves.

    It's just the regular orcs and goblins I think is lazy on the part of the authors of the white dwarf rules and one I'm going to ignore for my submod and replace with more interesting units. Immortals being one of them.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Chaos Dwarf

    Quote Originally Posted by Reiksfart View Post
    I agree, it's not lore breaking. I read somewhere they still rule over some black orcs who are not allowed entrance into their city, plus they are not considered as slaves.

    It's just the regular orcs and goblins I think is lazy on the part of the authors of the white dwarf rules and one I'm going to ignore for my submod and replace with more interesting units. Immortals being one of them.
    Sweet! Can't wait to see Immortals. They sound like twisted Ironbreakers and most conversions use Ironbreaker models with Chaos bits to give it a more Chaos-y look.
    Basil II Emperor of Byzantium, Bulgar Slayer


  17. #17
    Krystoforos's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Chaos Dwarf

    I have question: what about Centaur model? I read that CD have some dwarve-centaurs in their line.





    Dragonborn team has centaur model (CENTAURS - DIARNAE SPEAR)

    so maybe You could use it? It could be used to improve also beastemen roster.
    Last edited by Krystoforos; January 07, 2012 at 11:41 AM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Chaos Dwarf

    That white dwarf article, as I recall, made up the original Chaos Dwarf "army book." Back in... 4th edition I think it was? Maybe 5th. The chaos-dwarfs were added in between editions and didn't come with their own army book initially. Citadel only produced a limited range of miniatures and instead of an army book there was a series of articles in White Dwarf that outlisted the new race.

    The screenshot above is not from the white dwarf magazine but from the army book that was, as the disclaimer reads, composed from these various articles.

    It's undoubtedly true that the writers added Orcs and such to the list to compensate for the fact that a full range of miniatures had not been produced. Still, that's the original Chaos Dwarf lore (in fantasy battle at least, I don't know about the roleplaying game.) and Orc and (Hob)Goblin slaves have always been a big part of the Chaos Dwarf lineup. Just like the whatsits little goblins are part of the Ogre army book nowadays.

    Laziness aside, I don't think the Orcs and Hobgoblins in the list weaken it as a concept. It makes the Chaos Dwarves feel and play very differently from normal Dwarves. Having cheap and expendable troops suits an evil faction, and because the greenskins have such low pointcost compared to the Dwarves, the player is encouraged to use them as cannon fodder which again is in keeping with the lore.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Chaos Dwarf

    Interesting, I never knew they could hire Black Orks in tabletop.

    It makes the Chaos Dwarves feel and play very differently from normal Dwarves.
    Yes, you can play as an evil dwarf, sending hordes of lesser creatures to die in horrible ways. Most of them by your own fire, but who cares, they are just some orks, as long as enemy is defeated its all that counts.

    I kept playing a bit and noticed that even though you can build ports, they dont do anything. Even the regular dwarfs can build ships, but not Chaosdwarfs. And you dont get any trade from them either. Well, you can probably say that CD hate water, so thats ok.
    But I also noticed that Armor upgrade buildings are useless after level 2. You need level 2 to unlock melee dwarfs and Black Orks, but after that you have no troops you can upgrade, you are stuck with your basic warriors for the rest of the game.

    And one funny bug - when the Earthshaker cannon dies, its body transforms into some other model.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Chaos Dwarf

    I think Chaos dwarves need to be nerfed because in my campaign, they're taking over all of Kislev single handedly.

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