Heavy cav: Does charge - withdraw - recharge work?

[Parzival2211]

I have read it several times on these forums that a cycle of charge - withdraw - recharge is the best tactics for heavy cav.

My experience is however, that whenever I try detaching my cav from the enemy I lose more men than when I let them continue the melee - that is of course, unless they face strong spearmen or pikes.

Do I do something wrong, or have you experienced the same?

[Brusilov]

Cavalry get a 'charge bonus' - so when they hit an enemy unit they gain that. If you extract them and then 'reset' the charge they get the bonus again. The idea is for cavalry to break units by using this charge bonus. Once the enemy are running you can use a light skirmish unit to pursue them and destroy the unit - leaving your cavalry to break another unit. Cavalry can melee with foot units but as you've pointed out they have problems with spearmen.

Once one unit breaks it affects the morale of the other enemy units making them more likely to break as well.

If you lose too many men when you pull them out it may mean that you're leaving them engaged too long. I will move my cavalry units away as soon as they've hit. I also tend to have more than one unit available - when the first cavalry is out of the way I will charge the second one in - consecqutive hits by a cavalry units will lower the morale even quicker.

Also, by not leaving the cavalry unit in melee it should not tire them out as quickly. A 'blown' cavalry unit has no real impact.

I also tend to charge my units in as a block rather than a arrowhead. There is less chance that the cavalry unit will 'pierce' the enemy unit - which may be one reason why I don't lose many men when withdrawing the unit.

[Genius of the Restoration]

You shouldn't lose too many. It helps if the enemy unit is already engaged with a unit. If it's just one cav unit versus one infantry unit, you'll lose a lot more. I find that two units of cav acting together in charge-withdraw mode works well. Do you withdraw them far enough that they can build up to their max speed before charging again? Also that they are able to be in formation and all the stragglers are with the group?

[Parzival2211]

Thanks guys. Usually, I withdraw them far enough to enable them to conduct a full blown charge again. I will try to pull them out more quickly next time and see how that works.

When you talk about charging in with 2 cav units - I assume you mean that they take turns. Otherwise, the 2 units may interfere with each other and spoil the charge, right?

[Brusilov]

Thanks guys. Usually, I withdraw them far enough to enable them to conduct a full blown charge again. I will try to pull them out more quickly next time and see how that works.

When you talk about charging in with 2 cav units - I assume you mean that they take turns. Otherwise, the 2 units may interfere with each other and spoil the charge, right?

Yes.

Make sure the unit that is pulling away from the enemy is clear before setting off the second charge. If they are in the way the charge won't be a charge. Ideally if you have three cavalry units use them all - they will stay fresher longer. This also gives the enemy unit less time to recover.

Also they should be charging into an already engaged enemy unit. You should be attacking the flank/rear of the enemy. In desperate circumstances you can charge frontally but you will get more casualties.

Also try and pick on the flank units and preferably units that are tired as they will break quicker.

In order to get the charge bonus I think the following conditions need to be met;

1) The cavalry unit is halted and in formation (no stragglers)
2) The cavalry unit is facing the unit it will charge
3) The cavalry unit has to be far enough away from the target
4) The cavalry unit does not encounter other enemy units while it's charging.....

[NobleNick]

...When you talk about charging in with 2 cav units - I assume you mean that they take turns. Otherwise, the 2 units may interfere with each other and spoil the charge, right?

Agreed with the answers you got for that question. Four things I would like to point out:

1.) Two cav coming in together (or one right after the other, before the first can disengage) will kill more enemy than the single unit charge, and is often that extra little bit that is needed to break the morale of the enemy unit.

However, there are better ways. In addition to the tag team charges, which have already been mentioned in other posts (and which are superior in many respects to option 1) ...

2.) You can charge the units in side by side. This works great when you have two heavy cav/general units which are each too small to take on an infantry unit singly. What I do: Set up the cav units side by side in pre-battle and assign them a formation number. In battle, I get them set up in formation for the charge and then start them WALKing to a new formation position BEHIND the target enemy unit (so that the formation would have to walk directly through the enemy unit to get there). A few seconds into the walk, I set them to RUNning. about 1 second before they would hit the enemy, I select each unit individually and issue the attack command on the target unit. That way both cav units hit hard, each on its half of the target unit. Almost always get an instant rout, even on a fresh enemy unit. (Ah... do not try this against spears.)

3.) Harder to set up than any other method so far discussed in this thread, but yielding much better results (and excellent against spears) ---> Isolate the unit (e.g., a flank unit, especially one gone too wide; or a unit you successfully enticed to chase you). bring in two (or more) cav units from widely different angles. (For the two cav method, 180 degrees is best.) While both cav units are still well outside the range that it takes to develop a charge, adjust cav speeds so that the unit to the enemy's backside will arrive about 1.5 to 2 seconds before the front one (this is especially important with spears). Come in at a full charge with both units. The backside unit will bust up the unit, and get it to turn to face the backside cav unit or (more likely) rout, just before the front side unit crashes in.

4.) Any of the above three tactics (as well as those mentioned in other posts) works better if you first use your horses' superior stamina to wear the enemy down chasing you about the field for a few minutes.

I hope this helps.

[Genius of the Restoration]

Exactly right mate. One group remains and keeps the group pinned while the other does the dirty deed...

[Vindictus]

Weird. On the contrary to all your cycling charges, I see that charging 2+ cavalry units into a formation's back simultaneously results in a massive route. I play campaign games with lots and lots of cavalry. You can easily defeat armies three times larger than you just by focusing your charge at the weak section of an army.

Take for instance: You have 785 cavalry vs a 4000 infantry man group. Position your men so that the enemy has to funnel themselves (if they don't funnel themselves, look for a small cluster of troops). Mass charge that area and it results in an instant route. The fear spreads because cavalry is just so overpowered. They are scary.

[Brusilov]

Well, it depends if you're playing vanilla or a mod and the difficultly level.

I'm used to playing mods where units don't tend to run away unless put under pressure. Having more men hit a unit will cause bigger problems for the target, however, if you need 'sustained' pressure to break a unit then the cycling method works better as the unit does not get time to recover between hits.

[Vindictus]

Ah. I guess that's it. I combine so much pressure under one unit, it routes, and the unit near it absorbs the fear.

[Apollyon]

So long as its not an unengaged unit of spearmen/phalanx facing the right direction and prepared for the charge, its a sure-fire way to root the opponent.

[Mr. Shaboobies]

I also did some testing one time with cavalry charges and found out something cool.

The wider your cav formation, the more damage it does on impact. this could be because there is more bodies coming into contact on the charge. For this reason I don't use wedge, because there is only a small tip that comes into contact on the charge and most of the unit is incased within the wedge. If you spread out the unit as wide as it can be (usually 2 ranks is what I've noticed) then it will do much more damage.

[Vindictus]

^ weird. I find that as the worst way to charge. Spreading it so that there are only 2 men behind each charge lessens the impact. Sure, more surface area, but there is less bodies behind it to apply pressure.

I like to just expand to the width of the unit formation I am charging.

[Magic_8_Ball]

I also did some testing one time with cavalry charges and found out something cool.

The wider your cav formation, the more damage it does on impact. this could be because there is more bodies coming into contact on the charge. For this reason I don't use wedge, because there is only a small tip that comes into contact on the charge and most of the unit is incased within the wedge. If you spread out the unit as wide as it can be (usually 2 ranks is what I've noticed) then it will do much more damage.

Wedge is better, as strange is it can seem at first glance. It breaks formations apart.

If you want evidence, charge two cav units at each other, one in standard spread as far as possible and the other in wedge. The wedge will win, and is more helpful (in most) cases. You are right in saying that for standard formation, a thin formation gives you the best charge.

[DarthShizNit]

I use two deep with heavy calvary, and slightly deeper formations for those horrid time when im forced to charge with light calvary. Wedge is meh, never found much use for it, though im sure it has some

[caesar_37th]

I use two deep with heavy calvary, and slightly deeper formations for those horrid time when im forced to charge with light calvary. Wedge is meh, never found much use for it, though im sure it has some

I invite you into the world of clan H4X0Rs and how we devestate everything with wedge.

[Vindictus]

^. I don't mean to diminish your reputation or whatever you have obtained on this forum, but a regular cavalry charge would have worked exactly the same way the wedge did. The wedge was made strictly to break apart unit formations. The only reason that charge worked so successfully is because the Seleucid player was too afraid to turn toward the cavalry charge earlier and ready his pikes in fear of your own spearmen destroying his own formation.

You had the upperhand. Cataphracts either way can dish and receive a lot of damage before actually dying, since they are one of the strongest cavalry in the game.

[caesar_37th]

^. I don't mean to diminish your reputation or whatever you have obtained on this forum, but a regular cavalry charge would have worked exactly the same way the wedge did. The wedge was made strictly to break apart unit formations. The only reason that charge worked so successfully is because the Seleucid player was too afraid to turn toward the cavalry charge earlier and ready his pikes in fear of your own spearmen destroying his own formation.

You had the upperhand. Cataphracts either way can dish and receive a lot of damage before actually dying, since they are one of the strongest cavalry in the game.

Hate to diminish your reuputation but ah it, you just did that.

You have no idea what you are talking about. I was not involved in this game, I just chose an example that showed this really well. Anyways, far superior player than you have tested and developed this for a while and the fact is you're wrong.

[Magic_8_Ball]

^ I don't mean to diminish your reputation or whatever you have obtained on this forum, but a regular cavalry charge would have gotten stuck in the first couple ranks. The wedge was made strictly to break apart formations, which is exactly why you can break so many units instantaneously. A wedged cavalry kills more on impact than a thin formation. We've tested this over and over and it's pretty hard to win an even cavalry fight if you're in standard and your opponent is in wedge. Belle did have the upper hand there, but the point is to show that a wedge through multiple units is very deadly.

You can do the exact same thing with Praetorian or Macedonian cavalry with slightly more casualties.

[Vindictus]

Really? The only reason I've even brought up the suggestion was because I've done a wedge formation charge into the back of fighting infantry and it didn't kill them as fast as regular cavalry charge.

@caesar. A thousand apologies. I hope I didn't get you too mad. I felt that maybe my suggestion may have touched a rather defensive spot. But the one thing I must point out is... if any of us want a conversation to remain polite, then let's not automatically bring this up "far superior player than you have tested and developed this for a while and the fact is you're wrong."

The sentence says a lot. In fact, it could be a symbol!

1) Implies the person you are talking to sucks
2) Implies that your general knowledge of the game is superior than his right away.
3) And simply the overall connotation and wording of the sentence suggests an argument.

So let's keep the discussion polite and happy! =) As I did for you, I do hope you would keep it the same way towards me on a public forum.

Edit: As for the standard vs the wedge. The player on the topic stated that the most effective charge was one spread completely thin. I found it most effective when you spread the cavalry to the exact length of the unit you want to charge (or the majority of the unit). I'm not sure if the wedge has been tested against a standard formation spread to match its size.

Just throwing out opinions there.