Cav charge - withdraw - recharge: Does it work?

[Parzival2211]

I have read it several times on these forums that a cycle of charge - withdraw - recharge is the best tactics for heavy cav.

My experience is however, that whenever I try detaching my cav from the enemy I lose more men than when I let them continue the melee - that is of course, unless they face strong spearmen or pikes.

Do I do something wrong, or have you experienced the same?

[Macunaíma]

Happens to me sometimes. You have to be quick. As soon as they reach their target you order them to retreat.

[Aeratus]

If the enemy is about to rout, then sometimes it's better to keep the cavalry in melee.

If you're playing vanilla, try in custom battle 1 unit of Mongol light lancers vs 1 unit of Dismounted Chivalric Knight. In this situation, since the DCKs don't route so easily, the best way to win is to cycle and repeat the charge.

[In3x]

Yes

[Avatar]

It absolutely works. Indeed in some instances its about the only way to win battles. One thing that the AI can manage to do (even if inefficiently) is move its spear or pike units in the direction of your cavalry when they get close. Picking your spot, hitting the weak point in their line and then pulling back preserves your horsemen to have another go.

If you are in smaller scale engagements you can get away with leaving them in melee longer, but for the bigger battles, you need to get the most hit possible from your heavy hitters.

[.L.]

After the initial charge, I reccomend you have your cavalry go THROUGH the rest of the unit then strike at the enemies other forces from behind.

[Parzival2211]

Thanks, guys. Does it make a difference whether the heavy cav is impetuous or not? Could it be that impetuous cav doesn't pull out as fast and willingly as disciplined ones?

[xxxMoRaVexxx]

Thanks, guys. Does it make a difference whether the heavy cav is impetuous or not? Could it be that impetuous cav doesn't pull out as fast and willingly as disciplined ones?

No. It just makes them more prone to charging without your orders. Make sure you don't leave them in an area where they can easily attack an enemy unit or better yet, just micromanage them. They also have the highest morale level in the game and won't be affected by a general's death easily. Use those units that have this trait wisely.

And also, when you charge and then withdraw then charge again, check if your cavalry are using their lances while charging, there's some instances where the cavalry would charge only with their swords, if this happens, just withdraw from the fighting and then press alt+attack(charge).

[Ishan]

Thanks, guys. Does it make a difference whether the heavy cav is impetuous or not? Could it be that impetuous cav doesn't pull out as fast and willingly as disciplined ones?

Parz i can't believe you didn't knew this, the advisor tells this so many times when handling a cavalry. I learned this technique the day i tried its demo, cavalry is utterly pointless without using this technique imo. I reckon you're an infantry player.
Here is what it says:

When cavalry charge they cause extra casualties, due to the momentum of their attack. A cycle of charge - withdraw - charge, causes maximum casualties for minimum losses. Repeat until done.

And no, impetuous cav doesn't pull out as fast and willingly as disciplined ones. They're the same and have speed and momentum because they have same mass. The only difference is that impetuous can charge without giving them orders.

[Parzival2211]

Parz i can't believe you didn't knew this, the advisor tells this so many times when handling a cavalry. I learned this technique the day i tried its demo, cavalry is utterly pointless without using this technique imo. I reckon you're an infantry player.
Here is what it says:



And no, impetuous cav doesn't pull out as fast and willingly as disciplined ones. They're the same and have speed and momentum because they have same mass. The only difference is that impetuous can charge without giving them orders.

Of course, I am aware of this tactic and tried it myself quite often. But my experience was relatively negative, which is the reason why I am questioning it. When I charge archers with knights, I usually don't withdraw, since the knights slaughter the light inf easily in melee without suffering many or even any casulaties.

With heavy inf or even pavise crossbowmen, it's different. The knights will win, but suffer some casualties. Here, it may make sense. My problem may be that I have waited too long before I pulled the cav back - mostly when I saw that they started suffering casualties already. I will try to withdraw immediately after the chrage and see how that works.

I don't think I am an inf player. I actually tend to send in the inf often too late after charging the enemy's archers with my cav. The result is that I tend to lose too many expensive knights. I need to refine my combined arms skills.

Historically, despite the examples mentioned, I don't think that charge-withdraw-charge was a tactic of choice for European knights. Considering their ethos, withdrawing from melee would have been seen as dishonorable. In those days, honour and prestige overruled tactical considerations. And the average medieval inf (especially until the mid-13th cent) was not so well-trained, equipped and disciplined - hence couldn't keep up with knights in melee either.

[Mangalore]

...
Historically, despite the examples mentioned, I don't think that charge-withdraw-charge was a tactic of choice for European knights. Considering their ethos, withdrawing from melee would have been seen as dishonorable. In those days, honour and prestige overruled tactical considerations. And the average medieval inf (especially until the mid-13th cent) was not so well-trained, equipped and disciplined - hence couldn't keep up with knights in melee either.

forget ethos. Knights were professional soldiers. The whole chivarly wrappings were introduced because they were too indiscriminate in their doings.

French knights did repeat charges at all their glorious defeats in the 100 years war.

The problem is that MTW2 doesn't reflect harrassing tactics well. A couched lance attack was essentially a done deal since the front row of knights had to drive home and usually had following rows of knights behind them. A charge against an enemy who stood firm would turn out extremely bloody and here knights indeed would only be able to retreat with heavy losses since they'd be essentially static as they pulled out of the mess, reversed their horses and ran away.

Usually however knights would challenge other knights because after that infantry would be fair game to flanking and harrassing until they broke which would then happen pretty quickly.


Imo the engage/disengage tactic actually would be a quite common occurrence in battles left undecided as soldiers in heavy combat gear flailing weapons around and fighting for their lives would tire quickly. Battles over hours or days can only be explained by both armies having their units disengage frequently, otherwise I'd not think so few soldiers would die during the battle as opposed to the rout.

[lolIsuck]

It's one of my most used strategies, loads of archers or cav makes it able to kill huge numbers of enemies without losing a lot of men yourself. In a mod like TATW where the enemy has units of 250 soldiers and your units are almost/more then half the size it's pretty much neccesary.

[SeizeVictus]

Are there any distinct examples of the repeated charges in the medieval period ?

[.L.]

Are there any distinct examples of the repeated charges in the medieval period ?

I know this isn't in the Medieval period, but Alexander the great would repeatedly charge his opponents line with light cavalry to make gaps for his heavier cavalry.

[Ishan]

Yes there are:

Battle of Hastings (October 14, 1066): 2,200 Norman Knights repeatedly charged the Anglo-Saxon shield wall. All charges were repulsed with heavy casualties until the Saxon infantry, thinking the Normans were retreating, broke its formation to follow them and were routed by Norman cavalry.

^Source

[Aeratus]

At the Battle of Marignano, one of the biggest battles of the time, the French Cavalry charged the Swiss Pikemen 30 times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Marignano), and actually won the battle eventually. The cavalry charges were effectively in preventing the pikemen from advancing while the cannons could do enough damage.

[eXistenZ]

cavalry is far less effective in terms of speed than they were in rome. at least thats the impression i have

[lolIsuck]

Cavalry in Rome was massively overpowered and could charge like aways

[Ishan]

Yeah and because of that i think anyone who has played tough RTW mods will find M2TW easy imo.

[Aeratus]

Charge withdraw was definitely the historically accurate tactic of choice. At Crecy during the hundred years war, the French charged and withdrew 16 times. By the end of the day, they had trouble charging again with so many dead bodies piled in front of the English line.