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Thread: NEW: Gondor Unit Overhaul V2.0 for TATW 3.2

  1. #121

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    indeed

  2. #122

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Quote Originally Posted by brymht View Post
    STILL getting a CTD when attempting to load in Steam and Americas.
    Probably there are some other submods installed. The version for BS has not been updated, it only works with BS4.1. Please wait for the next update alltogether.
    Quote Originally Posted by Battletoads View Post
    Looking forward to the updated version.
    If everything goes smoothly, it will be released these weekends.

    A preview of ug2 upgraded model:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 










  3. #123

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    VERY nice! very nice indeed! Looking awesome!

  4. #124
    TheDarkKnight's Avatar Compliance will be rewarded
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    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    While I like them, my only concern is that they may become a good enough unit that recruiting the later spearmen may not be desired if such effective spearmen are already available. It also might be the picture (it seems to affect a lot of Gondor units) but they look really bulky.
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  5. #125

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Sounds great. Maybe have them start with simple (or no shields for ranged units) and improve the shields as they upgrade? Or maybe just change the skins for the shields so they look more rusty, worn, and battered before being upgraded. Either of these would be very realistic.

    The same can be done for weapons and armor as well, just give them a more worn and damaged appearance and then upgrade to high quality. Upgrades in real life meant higher quality equipment, not necessarily different or additional equipment. Also units with lower upgrades can be given mismatched and worn armor pieces, while the higher upgrades are more uniform and professional looking. This will dramatically add to unit variety and realism. It is also easier than swapping or adding models. There are some filters in Photoshop (probably GIMP too) that are good for giving equipment a worn, battered, or cracked appearance so it isn't much work at all. There is probably a filter that can easily be used for rust as well, but I can't think of one off the top of my head so I am not sure.

    I wanted to do this myself, but have been spending my modding time on other things.
    Last edited by alreadyded; January 12, 2012 at 07:18 PM.

  6. #126
    Spartan777's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Nice work mate.

    I think Dale would benefit most from an equivalent set of textures as they have some pretty lame looking militia type units. But wouldn't every faction benefit from this? Yes I think so. Get to it good sir
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  7. #127
    paradamed's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    I think it looks great Alhimik. I wouldnt change anything.

  8. #128

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gen. Chris View Post
    While I like them, my only concern is that they may become a good enough unit that recruiting the later spearmen may not be desired if such effective spearmen are already available. It also might be the picture (it seems to affect a lot of Gondor units) but they look really bulky.
    Not sure what is meant by bulky. Are they too heavily armored? I am thinking of removing chest leather armor on some, may be give it to 2/3 only. Also, i can modify and remove their gloves, they look more like to resist cold not for defense purposes.

    Regarding the balance, it is a matter of adjusting their stats. I see the problem is that they have level 0 armor initially, which is cloth. Then they get leather and chainmail upgrades. Minas Tirith has a blacksmith from the start of the campaign. This can be an issue, as Minas Tirith instantly gets access to heavily armored spearmen with 12-13 armor from the start (considering initial armor value is 8). I mentioned it before, some people run tests and found that each armor upgrade gives about 2-2.5 armor instead of displayed +1. On the other hand giving these militia initial armor of 6 makes the levies recruited in smaller settlements very weak compared to other early spearmen of other races. Even orcs have 6/6 stats with 251 soldiers in a unit.

    Two possible solutions i can think of. One is to adjust stats of all militia units of Gondor. For example make swords militia have 8 initial armour instead of 9, they start with leather armor in this submod, whereas they start with chainmail in vanilla. Levies due to having no armor than a helmet should start with 6-7 armor. Ex. 2 armor (helmet), 2 defense skill, 3 shield (large wooden round shield). Again, this would considerably weaken defenses in smaller settlements having no access to blacksmith. On the other hand, this would encourage to build leather tanner, which previously was completely useless.

    Second solution is to remove blacksmith from Minas Tirith (give leather tanner instead) and not change any values, give levies 3/2/3 standard armor values for light spearmen (rohan militia, breeland militia etc.). But... city like Minas Tirith should have blacksmith. I personally like the first solution. If you have other suggestions please share them.

    The cost of the unit is absolutely same as for rohan militia. That is 390 to recruit, etc. Is it too much, too low?

    Also, i am thinking of removing capes alltogether. Even professional troops do not have them. Only special troops such as ithilien rangers do. There was a suggestion to make a Pelargir Spearmen unit. Now, this is where i thought i could take this model and slightly change the textures, give the capes and a new unit is done.

    In the description of the unit could be something like this: "... these men were provided with large round shields to compensate their lack of armour and fighting skills...". If someone wants to contribute, there is still not descritption of this unit. Not that i cannot make it myself, its quite easy in fact. Just asked in case if someone wants to contribute.

    Quote Originally Posted by alreadyded View Post
    Sounds great. Maybe have them start with simple (or no shields for ranged units) and improve the shields as they upgrade? Or maybe just change the skins for the shields so they look more rusty, worn, and battered before being upgraded. Either of these would be very realistic.

    The same can be done for weapons and armor as well, just give them a more worn and damaged appearance and then upgrade to high quality. Upgrades in real life meant higher quality equipment, not necessarily different or additional equipment. Also units with lower upgrades can be given mismatched and worn armor pieces, while the higher upgrades are more uniform and professional looking. This will dramatically add to unit variety and realism. It is also easier than swapping or adding models. There are some filters in Photoshop (probably GIMP too) that are good for giving equipment a worn, battered, or cracked appearance so it isn't much work at all. There is probably a filter that can easily be used for rust as well, but I can't think of one off the top of my head so I am not sure.
    Rusty looking armor and swords, i might try it. Mismatched armor pieces however would not look nice. It is better to have none, or have some i think. There is a limit of 3-4 max armor looks for a unit unless you want minecraft looking units with 20 types of armor. Usually it is 3-4 different sets of textures that vary amont the troops. If given mismatched armor textures to 1 of it, already 40-50 soldiers will have exactly the same looking mismatched pieces, which does not bring any variety whatsoever. A different solution to bring variety is through modifying the model file and giving parts such as capes, pauldrons or helmets to portion of the soldiers. This can easily be done in a couple of minutes. The game engine will produce all sorts of combinations: full armor, chest + pauldrons, chest + cape, only chest armor, with or without belts. Considering that capes have 3 different textures, chest armor has 3, pauldrons have 2, belts have 2, you can get very distinct units of only 3-4 having same look. I will try it in a couple of hours and post here.

    I was planning to edit models/textures of previous release. Will it be logical to give professional gondorian shields to swords militia at final upgrade?

    I need some feedback and suggestions regarding the other militia units. Some people did not like steel shields texture, some did. If anyone has something in mind, it is time to share, otherwise I will just release it like it was in the previous version. And from what i plan, the version after this will not come soon. As i plan to reduce amount of time i spend on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan777 View Post
    Nice work mate.

    I think Dale would benefit most from an equivalent set of textures as they have some pretty lame looking militia type units. But wouldn't every faction benefit from this? Yes I think so. Get to it good sir
    Thanks. They do look lame, but... this takes a lot of time. I am not sure if i can get to them.
    Last edited by G|I|Sandy; January 13, 2012 at 09:09 AM.

  9. #129

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Ive been using your upgrades with RC unit values and stock 3.1, the Militia certainly have increased durability in combat, and upgrades off the bat in MT mean a congo of units to get the update IN Mt, since i go barracks/armourer in MT, that means the progression of increased militia upgrades is reached too soon. So i would downgrade the MT Blacksmith as your prefered option rather than rebalence unit values. ( thats with Inf moving 25% slower than in stock TATW due to changes to Inf/Cav/siege movement points*)

    My experience is that MT, followed by Pelagir/Amroth, re equips the bulk of your Units before turn 40, so the settlements existing buildings need some tweaking if you want to spread out the progression. Much depends on what Difficulty lvl you play mind you.

    * descr_campaign_db.xml add the belowfor Unit movement, and also reduce character movement points from 120 to 90.


    <cavalry_movement_points_modifier float="2.00"/> <!-- movement points modifier for cavalry units -->
    <infantry_movement_points_modifier float="1.00"/> <!-- movement points modifier for infantry units -->
    <siege_movement_points_modifier float="0.5"/> <!-- movement points modifier for siege units -->
    </misc>
    </root>

    Ps your new Spear Unit, i placed it at Settlemenet tier 3 size, as its here the extra settlement increase is less units maintained and built, so needs a little buff, and stops them from being in game at underdevoloped settlements, but enough from turn 1 fit this nicely if you went with recruiting them from barracks.
    Last edited by Hanny; January 13, 2012 at 09:52 AM.
    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Benjamin Franklin

  10. #130
    paradamed's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Quote Originally Posted by ALHIMIK View Post
    Not sure what is meant by bulky. Are they too heavily armored? I am thinking of removing chest leather armor on some, may be give it to 2/3 only. Also, i can modify and remove their gloves, they look more like to resist cold not for defense purposes.
    I think the visual style you achieved is fantastic. I dont think the units should be changed. Actually I think that any unit with armor has to look a little bulky. I just hate to see units that supposedly have armour with flat chests. One of the big critics towards the orcs, for example, is that even though they look good and have nice textures they look too flat in their chests, like they weren't even wearing armour.

  11. #131

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Quote Originally Posted by paradamed View Post
    I think the visual style you achieved is fantastic. I dont think the units should be changed. Actually I think that any unit with armor has to look a little bulky. I just hate to see units that supposedly have armour with flat chests. One of the big critics towards the orcs, for example, is that even though they look good and have nice textures they look too flat in their chests, like they weren't even wearing armour.
    I finally decided not to change them much. Already am tired of working with the same unit for over a week. However, i did made the belts appear on 2/3 of the soldiers to increase visual variaty.

    Next on the list: unit card and description.

    EDIT: Here are the unit info cards:





    OR

    Last edited by G|I|Sandy; January 13, 2012 at 03:23 PM.

  12. #132

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanny View Post

    Ps your new Spear Unit, i placed it at Settlemenet tier 3 size, as its here the extra settlement increase is less units maintained and built, so needs a little buff, and stops them from being in game at underdevoloped settlements, but enough from turn 1 fit this nicely if you went with recruiting them from barracks.
    For a mod that effects Gondor only, why not try for a unique unit experience for your spear unit. Mind you i love micro management! and would work only for the player.

    Tweaked that, 40 turns to build at village, took 10 turns of for each settlement size except tier 3 citys that produce them same as other militia, this gave a role play element to the unit. In that city (lvl3) raised them, but smaller cities could replace losses and not build them in the short term.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ALHIMIK

    Regarding the balance, it is a matter of adjusting their stats.
    You will no doubt have your own views, heres what i computated.


    Running them throgh my per hit point cost per unit model, a 151 militia unit comes purchase 493 maint 99. If upgraded in defense twice more ( def now 8) it comes to a value of, but of course not payed, as you have to expend the building cost to achieve the relative increase) 585 117. Four upgrades (12Def) comes to 678 136
    Compared to Gondor spear unit(def12) at 778 156
    Last edited by Hanny; January 14, 2012 at 05:50 AM.
    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Benjamin Franklin

  13. #133

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Double
    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Benjamin Franklin

  14. #134

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    New version (v1.1) available for download, tested it on a clean copy of TATW3.1:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/downl...o=file&id=3609

    In a rush right now. Will update op and reply to the posts later tonight.
    Last edited by G|I|Sandy; January 14, 2012 at 06:12 AM.

  15. #135

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    ALHIMIK

    very good work. This Unit is really important for gameplay reason.
    The models are great, also the unit card is good. Though, the unit card could be improved. It would be better, imho if the unit icon would show a unit which looks similar like the Gondor sword militia. So, the shirt should be leather brownish, similar like the sword militia.
    I’ve seen things you people wouldn’t believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain.

  16. #136
    Teutonic's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades v1.1 is out with a new unit - Gondor Levies

    Hi ALHIMIK. The new spear militia looks pretty nice. Maybe you could use the armour from the 2nd upgrade for the other militia units + the ones already used. Also, isn't good idea to use the non-upgraded textures for the other militia for the spearmen? They look like simple civilian clothes which the levy spearmen would normally wear.

  17. #137
    Aipe's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades v1.1 is out with a new unit - Gondor Levies

    is there any chance this mod is compatible with Baron Samedi's Gameplay Enhancing Submods Compilation 5.0 because that would be awsome

  18. #138

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades v1.1 is out with a new unit - Gondor Levies

    Quote Originally Posted by Aipe View Post
    is there any chance this mod is compatible with Baron Samedi's Gameplay Enhancing Submods Compilation 5.0 because that would be awsome
    That would be really awsome ^^

  19. #139

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanny View Post
    For a mod that effects Gondor only, why not try for a unique unit experience for your spear unit. Mind you i love micro management! and would work only for the player.

    Tweaked that, 40 turns to build at village, took 10 turns of for each settlement size except tier 3 citys that produce them same as other militia, this gave a role play element to the unit. In that city (lvl3) raised them, but smaller cities could replace losses and not build them in the short term.

    Running them throgh my per hit point cost per unit model, a 151 militia unit comes purchase 493 maint 99. If upgraded in defense twice more ( def now 8) it comes to a value of, but of course not payed, as you have to expend the building cost to achieve the relative increase) 585 117. Four upgrades (12Def) comes to 678 136
    Compared to Gondor spear unit(def12) at 778 156
    It is quite hard to understand your writing.

    If i understood you correctly, you want to reduce replenish rate of these units in small settlements and make it same as for other militia units in larger settlements. This is not a unique spearmen unit, this unit represents lowest of the militia, levies, who were gathered from commoners to maintain law and push back little forces of rebels and such for a little pay, by no means this are unique units to have such low replenish rates. In fact, i made them the only unit available in villages for Gondor, while other swords and archer militia are available from level 2 barracks and higher.

    It is nice that you do some calculations to balance out the units. I never did such and only used common sense to alter their stats. Very interesting. However, i would like to point out that these levies have only 2 upgrades, with having 9 final armor (displayed value). Therefore they are much worse than professional spearmen with 7 attack and 18 armor. Also note that professional troops can get up to 3 upgrades. Another very important thing is that amount of available swordsmen militia was cut due to what i mentioned previously about removing them from level 1 barracks. Not many settlements have level 2 barracks. This suggests that more decent swordsmen militia can be trained at large military centers such as Minas Tirith and Pelargir only, not anywhere you want. I believe this changes should bring some balance.

    Although theoretical calculations are good, all this needs practical testing. I am planning to start a new campaign today or tomorrow. It would be very helpful if someone else would play with these units for a good 50-100 turns and tell the differences in gameplay they notice and what changes should be made.

    I do understand that playing plain vanilla 3.1 is not as good as with BS submod. Therefore i will try to release a BS compatible version if i manage to assemble it all together without any problems. To be honest i myself want to play with BS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackie Treehorn View Post
    The models are great, also the unit card is good. Though, the unit card could be improved. It would be better, imho if the unit icon would show a unit which looks similar like the Gondor sword militia. So, the shirt should be leather brownish, similar like the sword militia.
    Couldn't agree more. I had trying different variations of unit cards, this one was the most fitting at the moment. I was short on time during the weekends and wanted to release it asap. Therefore it will remain as it is for now. I do plan to rework their chest armor to make it similar to other militia, or simply put the same texture, though i do not want to have any copyright etc problems and like to make things from scratch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teutonic View Post
    Hi ALHIMIK. The new spear militia looks pretty nice. Maybe you could use the armour from the 2nd upgrade for the other militia units + the ones already used. Also, isn't good idea to use the non-upgraded textures for the other militia for the spearmen? They look like simple civilian clothes which the levy spearmen would normally wear.
    Interesting. If i understood it correctly, your second suggestion is to have unupgraded textures from other militia on spearmen as well? Not sure about your first suggestion though. People, please explain more in detail and i could give proper replies. Thanks anyways!
    Last edited by G|I|Sandy; January 16, 2012 at 04:32 AM.

  20. #140

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Quote Originally Posted by ALHIMIK View Post
    It is quite hard to understand your writing.

    If i understood you correctly, you want to reduce replenish rate of these units in small settlements and make it same as for other militia units in larger settlements. This is not a unique spearmen unit, this unit represents lowest of the militia, levies, who were gathered from commoners to maintain law and push back little forces of rebels and such for a little pay, by no means this are unique units to have such low replenish rates. In fact, i made them the only unit available in villages for Gondor, while other swords and archer militia are available from level 2 barracks and higher.
    Sorta, the replenish rate is different at each settlement, the unit is unlikly to every get built at low level settlements due to very low replenish rate, instead damaged units replace from them instead, while being built at a higher tier setlement, think far West provinces of Gondor as taking 40 turns to build a spear unit, and haveing the time to do so, because of lack on invasions etc, while Linhir builds it in 10 for example, because of the higher pop base, gets experience in fighting and losses men, is sent of to replace losses and become the garrisoned free of charge unit for the western provinces. Like for instance Erech might replaxce a Linhir spear militia unit on turn 30 to full strength as that unit is rotated around Gondor to allow Linhir to get more units in play, instead of replacing losses and bringing those units into play at a slower rate.

    Its about Gondor gaveing acess to more numbers of unuits in game, the more ypou give them, with better stats, the more you need Mordor/Harad etc to hav ethe same or you lose the dynamic of Gondor being under mnapower pronblems of getting units in game, and keeping them at strength.

    Spear unit of those stats from low tier is very unbalancing in that respect..

    I costed your initial militia units as per RRRC unit values btw, (n spreadsheet can do any and all mods mind you) as playing on huge so you pay for what models you get, 151, which is different that if you play on normal and get 61. My system means you pay for each model in game ( takes into acount normal/large/huge that gives different numbers of models for the same price, makeing orc factions less easy to balance as in vanilla you pay for unit, not what is in the unit.)

    Gondors cav lack shileds, but thats an easy fix, so militia are very cost effective unless you add shields to Gondors cav.

    BS ver 5 is unplayable in the long term due to mid to late game cdts, which i doubt will be resolved, i would instead make your compatable with the RC mod. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=513489
    Last edited by Hanny; January 16, 2012 at 06:08 AM.
    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Benjamin Franklin

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