NEW: Gondor Unit Overhaul V2.0 for TATW 3.2

[Emperor of Hell]

The Baron version is not compatible with the latest version of Baron's submod

[Pipoka]

First post! Just Registered to say how awesome this submod is (that Third Age total War is awesome is pretty obvious already ^^) and to share my input:

-Loved what you did with the militias. It really allowed me to rely on them for longer, giving me time to improve my economy (I used to rush barracks so I could get some decent troops early on, and that hurt my economy a bit). Also I no longer get that "Oh , I'm back to using the crappiest of units" feeling when for some reason I have to rely on them later on ^^

-A question about the Levies (which are a great idea by the way. Kudos!): once they are released, and made the new "tier one" unit, will they be cheaper than current militia, or will they cost the same as the militia currently does? also, if the late option is true, will militia then become more expensive (due to now being "tier two")? Just asking because of the balance changes it introduces. I know I can mod this later myself if I don't like it, but its always nice to share in the debate. ^^

-About Pelargir Marines, will you consider adding the leather & light chainmail upgrades? It should be fairly easy if you just use or slightly alter the models from the basic militia? I know there has been some debate about marines using chainmail, but if you think historically the Ancient Roman troops used chainmail when boarding other ships in sea battles, and so did most medieval "Marine" units, with vikings armoring up before raids, etc. They wouldn't use the armor outside battle, but once boarding, being boarded, or disembarking became a possibility they would do so. I don't remember Tolkien saying anything about that aswell (correct me if I'm wrong) so I guess we can take some creative leave on that one. ^^

-About the Gondorian Helmets: Now that they become available only after later armor upgrades, will they show on every unit? Right now only half/two thirds of the men get them, and it kinda bothers me as I'm a sucker for visual coherence.

-This last one is unrelated to the submod, and rather directed at forum members in general: Has anyone got to using Blackroot Vale Archers or Lossarnach Axemen midgame-wise? I can't recruit them until those settlements upgrade, and that takes forever. I'm building all agriculture and pop-growth buildings as soon as I can, setting low taxes, and sending any decent governor I can spare there, but by the time they become available I already got better troops! It's really annoying since I always end up not using them, and I feel I'm missing in part of the game... =/ Also, if there's no "trick" I'm missing (and thus it's just intended to be this way), can anyone show me how to mod the settlements to start one level up?

Thanks ahead and keep up with the good work!

[TheDarkKnight]

Agreed about the faces, did not have time to change them. I used same/similar faces as other militia this time. Had to edit them a little bit. As per your request, here are some screenshots with the units standing straight:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And a closer look at the spears:

The main idea was to keep them light and yet similar to other gondorian militia troops. Tried to make them not standing out visually from the rest of the army.

The unit is planned to have another two upgrades, that is from cloth -> leather -> light chainmail. Making their texturing will be relatively easy as there is a base to start from. I will update the first post with details about the model and textures, and release the next version including these units once their ug1 and ug2 textures are done. King Kong requested to add informaiton on what textures and models were used in the submod. I will do so when the next version comes.

Some info/discussion on texture parts:

- Helmets: Only basic helmets, gondorian helmets are planned to come with next upgrades (ug1 and ug2)
- Heads: Still needs some work. Tried to use the same/similar textures as for other militia units. Ears are a bit off. But it is very hard to get them right. I was trying to get the best position possible, do not want to waste too much time on that, as it is not very noticable.
- Spears: seem a little too shiny. Will probably darken the textures a little bit.
- Shields: What about the stripes? The intention was to show the shields are wooden with paint on them. Should I remove it and keep it same as on archers? Also note the shields metal textures were made silverish, not yellowish.
- Legs: base textures are from vanilla M2TW, were edited slightly to make legs less covered to amphasize lightness of the unit (armor upgrade level 0, which is cloth).
- Body: Three types. Two have similar green/blue mat jacket with white/gray cotton shirt underneath. The third has white padded armor, I really like the ones on the archers, tried to make something similar. Also a blue shirt underneath with some ornaments.

Must have forgotten something...

Replies:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I will not work with sounds yet. About other mods, someone already wanted to combine efforts and work together, not sure about it, will see... As for looks, I also like the visual coherence of units in the army.


There is a version available for download in the first post, have not tested myself, but some people reported it works.


Not orders, but suggestion/ideas/discussions all appreaciated. Initially I wanted to work with FPoE, then decided to start with Gondor first. Once I am done with Gondor... may be. I do not want to give high expectations and then fail to accomplish them.


Probably there are other submods installed. It will not work simply by overwriting, need to do it manually.

To all other about the faces, they should look much better now.

They do look better. And I like the stripes...It shows them being a different class of soldiers.

[Pipoka]

Yeah I forgot about that. I also do like the stripes. It gives them personality

[G|I|Sandy]

The Baron version is not compatible with the latest version of Baron's submod

It was compiled for 4.1. Does not work anymore... I plan to update it with the next release.

-A question about the Levies (which are a great idea by the way. Kudos!): once they are released, and made the new "tier one" unit, will they be cheaper than current militia, or will they cost the same as the militia currently does? also, if the late option is true, will militia then become more expensive (due to now being "tier two")? Just asking because of the balance changes it introduces. I know I can mod this later myself if I don't like it, but its always nice to share in the debate. ^^

Hi and welcome to the forums. I have not worked out the recruitment costs as I am still working with textures and only testing them in custom battle mode. Suggestions regarding the priced would be appreciated. I was planning to refer to Rohan's tier one spearmen as a reference and make Gondor levies about the same strength and cost.

-About Pelargir Marines, will you consider adding the leather & light chainmail upgrades? It should be fairly easy if you just use or slightly alter the models from the basic militia? I know there has been some debate about marines using chainmail, but if you think historically the Ancient Roman troops used chainmail when boarding other ships in sea battles, and so did most medieval "Marine" units, with vikings armoring up before raids, etc. They wouldn't use the armor outside battle, but once boarding, being boarded, or disembarking became a possibility they would do so. I don't remember Tolkien saying anything about that aswell (correct me if I'm wrong) so I guess we can take some creative leave on that one. ^^

I am no lore master, so am not sure if it is proper to give them upgrades or not. The development process is open to suggestions, and some of them may be picked and implemented. I personally think it is ok for them to have chainmail. Will see. Need to finish levies first though.

-About the Gondorian Helmets: Now that they become available only after later armor upgrades, will they show on every unit? Right now only half/two thirds of the men get them, and it kinda bothers me as I'm a sucker for visual coherence.

My train of thought was to give all of them gondorian helmets at later upgrades including other swords and archer militia. However it was planned not just to give the same helmets to everyone, but slightly alter them. I suppose the colors could be changed from greenish to silverish on some. Also feathers texture around face area could be given to some to keep the variance. Many ideas come on the way during texturing.

-This last one is unrelated to the submod, and rather directed at forum members in general: Has anyone got to using Blackroot Vale Archers or Lossarnach Axemen midgame-wise? I can't recruit them until those settlements upgrade, and that takes forever. I'm building all agriculture and pop-growth buildings as soon as I can, setting low taxes, and sending any decent governor I can spare there, but by the time they become available I already got better troops! It's really annoying since I always end up not using them, and I feel I'm missing in part of the game... =/ Also, if there's no "trick" I'm missing (and thus it's just intended to be this way), can anyone show me how to mod the settlements to start one level up?

Same here. I used lossarnach axemen quite a bit against Mordor. However blackroot archers were not even available. I have some ideas regarding how to fix that. I believe there is a special building in that region, cannot remember the name. It could be given the ability to recruit some blackroot archers say every 20 turns or so. Then when the village gets upgraded and archery range is built the recruit pool could be increased. Nice that you brought it up. Better to post it in the general suggestions thread so that KK and team can see.

Thanks for the suggestions and comments.

[Emperor of Hell]

It was compiled for 4.1. Does not work anymore... I plan to update it with the next release.

Yes, that´s what I told you

[G|I|Sandy]

Another idea I plan to implement in the next version. Please think through and do not go rage immediately. If people do not like it, it will not be implemented.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Keep in mind that the levies unit will be available in level 1 barracks, while militia will be pushed to level 2 and higher. Meaning villages will get weaker in terms of defences and replenishment of troops.

The idea is to rework the current barracks and blacksmiths interaction, or lack of it. I was always thinking how do barracks get all the armor and weapons for troops without having blacksmith in a settlement. Unless they have their own small blacksmith, but then why do troops need blacksmith to upgrade armor if it is available in barracks. Currently mustering hall (level 1 barracks) is available in villages, but leather tanner only comes with small town (wooden palisade upgrade). My idea is to make leather tanner (level 1) a prerequesite for barracks level 2. Then make blacksmith (level 2) a prerequesite for barracks level 3. Basically you will not be able to build barracks in a settlement unless the corresponding blacksmith is available. Whats all that for? Well, just an idea to make it more real. Also wanted to make use of the upgraded troops.

Wall upgrade ------------Barracks level--------Blacksmith (level required to build barracks)

village (no walls)---------------1-----------------not available
small town (walls level 1)-----2-----------------1 (leather tanner) <- levies get +1 armor
city (walls level 2)-------------3-----------------2 (blacksmith) <- gondor militia +1, levies +2 armor

To further support the idea, the levies start off with no armor other than clothes. Gondor militia start with leather armor. So leather tanner is needed to have level 2 barracks. Professional gondorian troops come with level 3 barracks, which needs blacksmith level 2 (chainmail). It will force the basic militias to keep up with the main armies in terms of both sturdiness and visual appearance.

Also, most of the settlements have leather tanner available for building till the end of campaign and are not used at all. If this feature is implemented, small towns at the borders that get attacked frequently will need level 2 barracks to produce swords militia to defend and also leather tanner will have to be built. As a result the trained levies will come with +1 armor upgrade and become a substantial defending force. Overall more units will get armor upgrade.

Overall this should spice up the armor upgrading system and make use of blacksmiths.

Another idea. To add weapon upgrades to either high level blacksmiths or barracks. I have not seen any weapon upgrades in TATW, not in my campaigns. Just wanted to make use of this feature. Blacksmiths obviously just improve weapons by changing with better ones or sharpening them etc. High level barracks have training facilities and low tier militia can get retrained to improve offensive capabilities etc.

Please give your thoughts on this one. It may affect the next release.

[Mathieu Of Belgium]

Another idea. To add weapon upgrades to either high level blacksmiths or barracks. I have not seen any weapon upgrades in TATW, not in my campaigns. Just wanted to make use of this feature. Blacksmiths obviously just improve weapons by changing with better ones or sharpening them etc. High level barracks have training facilities and low tier militia can get retrained to improve offensive capabilities etc.
[/SPOILER]

About this, they are weapon upgrades in the campaign, you can get a swordsmith-guild in your castles if I remeber correctly, the problem is that you have to improve your settlements quite a bit before these guild request come

Also Benox suggested another unit that also would be nice I think: Pelargir Wardens

may i suggest another unit? wardens of pelargir, heavy infantry with some second age essence

something like this

Gondorian Fiefdom troops: From left to right: Warrior of Pinnath Gelin, Warrior of Ringlo Vale, Warden of Pelargir, Man-at-Arms of Dol Amroth



also pelargir actually was a bigger gondorian city and, far more important and crucial, than dol amroth(Pelargir actually did most of the fight against harad)

What do you think?

They would have leather armour that could be upgraded to mail. A numenorean-style helmet, and a large 'mushroom' shield with the Pelargirs symbol on it. In despite of what Benox said I would make them light infantry

[Pipoka]

Same here. I used lossarnach axemen quite a bit against Mordor. However blackroot archers were not even available. I have some ideas regarding how to fix that. I believe there is a special building in that region, cannot remember the name. It could be given the ability to recruit some blackroot archers say every 20 turns or so. Then when the village gets upgraded and archery range is built the recruit pool could be increased. Nice that you brought it up. Better to post it in the general suggestions thread so that KK and team can see.

Actually I did create a thread awhile after I posted here. You can share your thoughts here http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=514589 if you want

-About the blacksmith thing, it could work, but then you would probably want to decrease the build-time and/or costs of either the barracks or the blacksmiths, given how now you have to build both of them - before you had a choice: get better troops or get more armor on the existing ones. If you force people to build both (and thus take more time and have to spend more money) you should lower the burden somewhat...

-About weapon improvements, they'd be cool to show, but I'd stick with the guilds. I'd just make them somewhat more available on your main recruitment centers (increase the chance of the event for them to "spawn" in certain settlements or something).

[G|I|Sandy]

Here is a quick preview of ug1 upgraded units (leather upgrade):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Not sure about the pauldrons. The textures need to be reworked it seems or simply removed completely.

I will give more info on the model and textures and reply to posts later. Pretty tired right now.

[Pipoka]

Actually I had another question about the levies/militia I forgot:

-Once you bump the militia's one tier up, will this changes their replenish times and stacking at lower levels (tier two/three)? because if so it could make a somewhat large difference...

[Pipoka]

Great preview! Yeah the pauldrons do need some more work. Everything else looks good though!

Just one thing, can't you give them something else besides the shield paint to make them feel more "Gondorian" maybe a white tree painted on the chest or something? Right now they seem a bit too "Medieval North European" generic...

Other than that, looking great!

[paradamed]

I liked the upgrade.

[Perran]

Just one thing, can't you give them something else besides the shield paint to make them feel more "Gondorian" maybe a white tree painted on the chest or something? Right now they seem a bit too "Medieval North European" generic...

I'd agree with this, maybe keep the gondor helmets at the lower tiers? And yes a white tree, they do look good though.

[G|I|Sandy]

Replies:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

About this, they are weapon upgrades in the campaign, you can get a swordsmith-guild in your castles if I remeber correctly, the problem is that you have to improve your settlements quite a bit before these guild request come

Also Benox suggested another unit that also would be nice I think: Pelargir Wardens

They would have leather armour that could be upgraded to mail. A numenorean-style helmet, and a large 'mushroom' shield with the Pelargirs symbol on it. In despite of what Benox said I would make them light infantry

I will not touch the barracks and blacksmith in the next release, realized it is not good to reduce the building possibilities by forcing to build certain buildings.

Regarding the wardens, idea is nice. I will see if they could be implemented. Most importantly I need to know how they should look. Nice photo there. If you could give a more detailed description I might be able to create a unit like that. However, I want to focus on armor upgrades first.

Actually I did create a thread awhile after I posted here. You can share your thoughts here http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=514589 if you want

-About the blacksmith thing...

-About weapon improvements...

The barracks thingy will not be implemented, not yet at least.

Actually I had another question about the levies/militia I forgot:

-Once you bump the militia's one tier up, will this changes their replenish times and stacking at lower levels (tier two/three)? because if so it could make a somewhat large difference...

This kind of mechanics, I believe, are taken care of by engine, not scripts. Meaning that armor upgrades do not change replenish rate of a unit because they are technically same units.

Just one thing, can't you give them something else besides the shield paint to make them feel more "Gondorian" maybe a white tree painted on the chest or something? Right now they seem a bit too "Medieval North European" generic...

White tree symbol is characteristic of citadel guards if I am not wrong. Therefore I wanted to avoid using it too much. Personally I like the tree on the chests, but some may not like it. Anyways, I finally decided to add them. Please tell me if there are any other symbols/ornaments of Gondor that can be used on units.

I'd agree with this, maybe keep the gondor helmets at the lower tiers? And yes a white tree, they do look good though.

I am thinking of leaving basic/medieval type of helmets on all unupgraded militia, but provide them with gondorian helmets after upgrades.

Here is changes list done to ug1 model:
- pauldrons reworked
- medieval helmets changed to gondorian helmets
- white tree added onto chest armor
- a test/experiments to learn how to make better normal maps using a slightly different image for normal mapping than the original one to make units look better, make 2D textures look 3D-ish (you to judge)

Image heavy spoiler (hope you like it ):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Next on the list, ug2 upgrade with chainmail. Probably going to leave leather pauldrons, only chainmail will be added. These are levies after all.

[TheDarkKnight]

My thoughts...I think the cape is a bit much. I can't imagine levies using capes. But that's just me.

[Pipoka]

They look great! And definitively seem more "Gondorian" ^^ Kudos!

[baz44331]

They look very good rep +. I think the cloak makes perfect sense if there just militia. everyone one in middle earth wears them.

[brymht]

STILL getting a CTD when attempting to load in Steam and Americas.

[Battletoads]

Looking forward to the updated version.