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Thread: NEW: Gondor Unit Overhaul V2.0 for TATW 3.2

  1. #21
    Araval's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Well done! +rep

  2. #22
    Kosopporkat's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Nice work! I hope your work gets permission to be published.

  3. #23
    salmonpetsku's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Quote Originally Posted by muller227 View Post
    Historically wealthy societies often equipped their militia very well equal to or greater than professional military societies they faced. Thebes and Athens militia often possessed cuirasses of some kind while the much more professional warrior elite of Sparta did not.

    Wealthy states often subsidized militias either in the form of tax relief (pretty major in the Middle Ages), or outright gifts or reduced costs of purchase. This of course could be replicated by increasing upgrade costs in the EDU or the cost in building necessary smithing levels.
    It's quite stupid to compare advanced steel plate armour to hoplite armour which was usually leather and bronze. Crafting bronze is far more easier and cheaper than steel And Spartans didn't use armor for propaganda reasons. Spartan red cape and no armor looked in battle that Spartans don't bleed And Athens army was bunch of free male citizens and mercenaries who bought their equipment themselves. Their army was somekind of mixture of concript army and militia. Every citizens had to belong in army but city didn't support in any way. They didn't practised very much and that's the reason why professional army of Sparta won them in Peloponnessian War. Roman army was also conscript army before marian reforms around 100 BC.

    Many people don't know difference between militia and levies. Militias are voluntary homeguard who usually purchases their equipment by themselves and levies are conscripts.

    Quote from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscri...edieval_levies
    Under the feudal conditions for holding land in the medieval period, most peasants and freemen were liable to provide one man of suitable age per family for military duty when required by either the king or the local lord. The levies raised in this way fought as infantry under local superiors. Although the exact laws varied greatly depending on the country and the period, generally these levies were only obliged to fight for one to three months. Most were subsistence farmers, and it was in everyone's interest to send the men home for harvest-time.
    In the Middle Ages most of the army were levies with homemade spear shield and only small part of army was professional soldiers, like knights and household guards. Some richer nobles gave better armour like chainmail or gambeson to skilled soldiers. Also there were so called yeomanry, younger sons of minor landowners in places like Britain and Switzerland. Most famous of yeomanry are english longbowmen and swiss pikemen.

    Sorry about offtopic

    I like the idea of increasing cost of armor upgrades. Those upgrades are too cheap.

    BTW is gondorian army professional or conscription army. There are many professional element like Fountain Guard, Citadel Guard and Rangers but in ROTK chapter Siege of Gondor, Southern Fiefdoms are described very feudal ?

  4. #24

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Regarding the permission, I have got permission from Mathaeus, who redesigned original militia units in patch 1.2. I also PMed King Kong.

    Long post:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Khay View Post
    I'm honestly not sure about the balance, three levels look like A LOT of improvement to me, but god they look great! The implementation of the second armor upgrade (the chainmail one with pauldrons) visual in vanilla, without expanding the upgrade tree to insane levels, would be visually pleasing, yet absolutely transparent in terms of gameplay. If i may give some criticism, however, the texture of this chainmail with bigger rings doesn't look as good as the previous one, in terms of pure visual quality, plus, i'm not sure that better chainmails were historicaly made of bigger rings (though i don't know much about historical armor crafting, tbh )
    I did some testing fighting against higher tier units of other factions with 3-upgraded militia units:

    vs Eorling swordsmen, close victory
    vs Dismounted royal guards (spearmen), close victory
    vs Uruk-hai Infantry, defeat, 1/2 of enemies killed
    vs Heavy uruk halberds, very close victory
    vs Morannon guards, very close victory (about 20 man remained)
    vs Mordor heavy uruks, defeat, 1/2 killed
    vs OotMM heavy goblin infantry, defeat, 2/3 killed
    vs Dismounted serpent guard, defeat, 2/3 killed
    vs Loke-flag rim, crushing defeat, less than half killed

    The general trend I observed is that the militia units have less stamina than professional troops. In the beginning of a fight they seem to be doing quite well, however they start losing rapidly after a couple of minutes of the fight. Armor upgrades do nothing to stamina. Also, they only managed to defeat spearmen and lost to most of the professional troops there is. Exception is the Rohan troops. They seem weak. In conclusion I would say it is pretty balanced, considering you need to build 4 levels of forge to get these upgrades going. Also, there is the retrainment cost. To get these upgrades one must play a long campaign and invest a lot of money into it. I would say though that since visually chainmail was removed on unupgraded militia, reducing their base armor from 4 to 3 (9 to 8 overall) can be a good balancing move.

    I agree that militia units should not be overpowered. It is just that not utilizing the awesome armor upgrade feature M2TW is killing me. I believe it can be balanced out. Also, staying on 2nd upgrade can be a choice. However, considering that reaching level 4 armoury is almost never possible by the time you get professional units does add to balance. Having armoury however can help to upgrade less useful by then militia units and still make use of them, when enemy starts sending higher tier stacks at your borders.

    I am too not sure about the chainmail and all that crafting stuff. I just felt having original militia look at level 2 upgrade discouraging from ugprading it. Why upgrade if same textures will appear again, so I kept it at 1st upgrade. I think I might change the original textures all together, though it takes a lot of time and holidays are running out.

    Quote Originally Posted by salmonpetsku View Post
    I think its quite ""unrealistic" that militia units have two kind of helmets, the nasal (norman helmet) and gondorian helmet. Armour values of those two helmets are quite different. So I have a suggestion that ug 0 & 1 have norman helmet and ug2 & 3 gondorian helmet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarrum View Post
    As said before, standardize the helmet models you use so that the proper Gondorian helmets don't get mixed in the the lower-quality ones.
    Regarding the helmets, thats how they originally were. If all of the militia were given the gondorian helmet, they would totally look like professional units. I just liked their helmets in the movie and wanted to try it out. In this modification I only dealt with textures, not touching any model files. Not that I do not want to, I can't, at least for now. I could remove the feathers texture though.

    Quote Originally Posted by salmonpetsku View Post
    Partial plate was far more common but most common part were pauldrons (shoulder armor) and gorget (throat armor) with chainmail and gambeson. So IMO last armor upgrade should be chainmail with shoulder plates.

    But keep up the good work
    I agree about the pauldrons. It seemed very unrealistic when all gondorian troops had fancy full plate armors and such while their kingdom was collapsing. I couldn't find a single scene with a basic militia to try to remake them in the TATW. However, for the sake of pleasing eyes I added frontal full plate armor for 2/3 of them. Also, the others only have frontal body chest armor and no pauldrons (cause the model is not designed for pauldrons and implementation is very hard on militia, tried to no success). I thought it was good to keep some of them less armed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yarrum View Post
    I would recommend that you remove the metal shield texture. It looks cool, but armor upgrades don't affect the unit's shield stat, so it seems silly to upgrade the shields but not have that reflected in the unit's stats.

    You should see if you can implement the faces used for the core Gondorian troops, as those are of a much higher quality than the ones for the militia units.
    I agree that it is too much for militia. I will see what I can do about the shields. May be replacing with wood will do. On a different note, considering the heavy investments it takes to reach level 4 armoury it does seem balanced. Unless someone intentionally tries to reach it ASAP skipping other economy and military buildings it is not very possible to have it before professional troops become available. Having better shields does not affect shield defense stats, however it does affect main armor stats, so it is not that bad. I also tend to pay much attention to those numbers and like to have consistency and reason in those values.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta_02_Cat View Post
    And think about this, militia units are used when there is a lack of professional troops but if a militia unit fights for years and become highly experienced why shouldn't they become a "regular" unit and therefore get better equipment?
    Exactly what I thought! Having a speacial veteran militia unit with silver experience points who have slain hundreds of enemies in tens of battles, defended Osgiliath, sieged the Black gate, marched across the Mordor return to Minas Tirith and get shiny half-plate chest armor in recognition and respect. Also those who fell in battle are replaced and veterans can share experience with fresh recruits. This is the type of unit I was looking for.


    To all the rest I apologize if I missed out something and thanks for the constructive feedback.
    Last edited by G|I|Sandy; January 02, 2012 at 12:18 PM.

  5. #25
    Dwarven Berserker's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Looks awesome! I feel this should actually be put into the vanilla mod
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
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    this signature is completely pointless. have a nice day

  6. #26

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Quote Originally Posted by ALHIMIK View Post
    Regarding the helmets, thats how they originally were. If all of the militia were given the gondorian helmet, they would totally look like professional units. I just liked their helmets in the movie and wanted to try it out. In this modification I only dealt with textures, not touching any model files. Not that I do not want to, I can't, at least for now. I could remove the feathers texture though.
    How about removing the Norman helmets on later upgrades and give them the gondorian helmet with and without feather textures? I agree now that if all men have the full gondorian helmet (with feathers) it would seem to professional. But if you want to keep the norman helmet it still looks great

    Quote Originally Posted by ALHIMIK
    I agree about the pauldrons. It seemed very unrealistic when all gondorian troops had fancy full plate armors and such while their kingdom was collapsing. I couldn't find a single scene with a basic militia to try to remake them in the TATW. However, for the sake of pleasing eyes I added frontal full plate armor for 2/3 of them. Also, the others only have frontal body chest armor and no pauldrons (cause the model is not designed for pauldrons and implementation is very hard on militia, tried to no success). I thought it was good to keep some of them less armed.
    That was a great idea, overall the fully upgraded militia stills retains the look of a semi professional unit because they only got frontal plate and not all of them get pauldrons in comparison to fully upgraded Gondor Infantry they seem lighter armoured and have more variance.


    Quote Originally Posted by ALHIMIK
    I agree that it is too much for militia. I will see what I can do about the shields. May be replacing with wood will do. On a different note, considering the heavy investments it takes to reach level 4 armoury it does seem balanced. Unless someone intentionally tries to reach it ASAP skipping other economy and military buildings it is not very possible to have it before professional troops become available. Having better shields does not affect shield defense stats, however it does affect main armor stats, so it is not that bad. I also tend to pay much attention to those numbers and like to have consistency and reason in those values.
    No matter if they are wooden or metal shields, I like the textures you added and they are a good addition to the visual look of the upgraded units. What would be the visual difference between wooden shields and metal ones?

  7. #27

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    looking good, but waitin till you have KK permission
    Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do...

  8. #28

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Great news! Recieved permission from King Kong. Also changed mounted cavalry militia textures as well. Going to upload 1.0 version tonight or tomorrow.

  9. #29
    _Tartaros_'s Avatar "Harzschütze"
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    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    congrats, the unitupgrades are a good improvement for the militia units. this brings a bit fresh air into long time campaigns

  10. #30

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Quote Originally Posted by ALHIMIK View Post
    Great news! Recieved permission from King Kong. Also changed mounted cavalry militia textures as well. Going to upload 1.0 version tonight or tomorrow.
    This is great! Can't wait to start a new campaign with these!

  11. #31

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Great work!
    Is it savegame-compatible? (I will install it if it doesn't disturb my hotseat camapign )

  12. #32

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Uploaded version 1.0 for public download. All instructions are in the first post.
    Quote Originally Posted by _Tartaros_ View Post
    congrats, the unitupgrades are a good improvement for the militia units. this brings a bit fresh air into long time campaigns
    This was exactly what was pushing to spend days on understanding how all these things work and then texturing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Delta_02_Cat View Post
    This is great! Can't wait to start a new campaign with these!
    Glad to know people want to try this!
    Quote Originally Posted by kiskompi View Post
    Great work!
    Is it savegame-compatible? (I will install it if it doesn't disturb my hotseat camapign )
    Great news to you. It is savegame-compatible. Tested just now on my old 3.0 save, worked perfectly, all my militias received retraining possibilities. It will work on 3.1 as well.

    Have fun playing Gondor campaign! To swords men, today we fight in Mordor!!!

    Do not forget though that you need level 4 armoury building to get the last upgrade. My idea is to get it ASAP, say before turn 30 and then quickly move the front inside Mordor. The drawback is weak economy, but it is well worth it as professional units will come much later and have much higher upkeeps. Have not played the campaign with these myself yet. That is what I will do tomorrow, i think.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Download not working says "security token?"
    Shogun 2, no thanks I will stick with Kingdoms SS.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Quote Originally Posted by stevehoos View Post
    Download not working says "security token?"
    Yeah I get the error message:
    Code:
    Your submission could not be processed because a security token was invalid.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Quote Originally Posted by stevehoos View Post
    Download not working says "security token?"
    Thanks for pointing that out. I provided the direct link which seems to only work for me or for a short time. Now it should be good.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Quote Originally Posted by ALHIMI
    Great news to you. It is savegame-compatible. Tested just now on my old 3.0 save, worked perfectly, all my militias received retraining possibilities. It will work on 3.1 as well.
    Thanks men, I pray for you!

  17. #37

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Quote Originally Posted by ALHIMIK View Post
    Thanks for pointing that out. I provided the direct link which seems to only work for me or for a short time. Now it should be good.
    Thanks for the mod!!!
    Shogun 2, no thanks I will stick with Kingdoms SS.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    I plan to release another version compatible with other popular submods such as Baron Samedi's and MOS. The good news it does not interact with other mods, unless they specifically deal with those militia units. It can be put on top and removed easily. I do believe no permission is needed for that.

  19. #39
    paradamed's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    No, you dont need permission to release compatible versions with other submods. I think that Baron Samedi's submod is the most played right now, a compatible version would be very welcomed. Thanks for this cool submod!

  20. #40

    Default Re: Gondor Visual Armour Upgrades (Basic Militia)

    Excellent... I use only your ug2 texture, as I do not want to have more than one upgrade for militia troops, but it's really very very nice, and it fits well with the regular troops and their upgrades. You certainly plan the other units as well - will you continue with Rohan, Eriador, Arnor and Dale ?


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