Fixing the replenishment problem

[Adamar]

Hey all, i have just had a thought about the replenishment problem. You know how sucky it is with the MTW2 engine, that you cannot replenish troops without the massive ball ache of sending more troops over half the map, or returning troops to be retrained.

I have thought of a solution which may make the game more realistic in this manner and closer to shogun 2's model of replenishment.

Historically when a company was decimated, it would draw some new men in and train them, usually from landless stock. Mercenary companies and lords banner armies are a good example of this, or the press gangs of the european navies.

I think this can occur in the middle earth, if we give each or a select few types of unit general status. This would mean infantry battle training would remain longer (no more having to have 100 swordsmen killing 10000 rebels over a days gameplay just to max out on experience), and allowing for replenishment. It would also model the rank command feature of most armies with private, serjeant, captain, lietenant, major, commanders etc. With each unit having general status this ranking can be reliably handled.

Because I think it is silly that only family members can be good generals, or the random chance of a unit's victory elevating a captain to a general.

Just an idea. If the replenishment conditions vary due to situation, and can be varied more , i think this would make the game a lot more fun. As experience grinding is a real chore for any unit that is not a general or archers. I have never had any sword unit reach gold chevron with a full stock except in europa barbarorum with some shock units.

[zax]

General units have limited number of men, even though they can start with 152 bodycount they cannot replenish beyond 77 (huge unit size) (at lest i don't know how to increse it-someone with more knowledge should say)
Also such unit will be a general just like any of your other generals who will gain/lose traits etc, it also means if the general dies the unit is gone after the battle. Also like other generals he will have more hp then a regular 'captain'

[Adamar]

I see, thanks for the info. I think generals can be created with traits that can limit or supplement them? For example a general for a spear unit would have a captain status trait which handicaps his skills, and a trait could be created that gives him a chance to gain rank.
Captains would have trained traits which limit command and morale boosts etc, but a trait could be created that happens when x happens to advance rank.
Historically Mercenary companies especially would disband once their leader died and they would flock to another company. I understand if the captain died it would be a bummer, but hitpoints can be altered for that with trait system based on rank i guess.

[zax]

I see, thanks for the info. I think generals can be created with traits that can limit or supplement them? For example a general for a spear unit would have a captain status trait which handicaps his skills, and a trait could be created that gives him a chance to gain rank.
Captains would have trained traits which limit command and morale boosts etc, but a trait could be created that happens when x happens to advance rank.
Historically Mercenary companies especially would disband once their leader died and they would flock to another company. I understand if the captain died it would be a bummer, but hitpoints can be altered for that with trait system based on rank i guess.

Historicaclly true but here we don't have realistic man behaviour, only game mechanics and it limitations.
Lets assume you have implemented general_unit status and made them recruitable. Now, during game you have created a stack of 10 units. Meaning, 10 units = 10 generals (each time u recruit unit u also recruit general), now during battle because of wrong decisions 6 of those general die even if their units suffer no casulties. Because of game mechanics, after the battle those 6 units will be deleted, and no script can save them. That leaves you seriously undermanned.

Also generals are... stupid. Each time u issue order for bodyguards, general stops and waves his sword, usually dragging behind and making himself vulnerable. And if u limit general HP, those will more likely die in such situations. U can of course remove "waving sword" animation but point me someone who will do it.

Auto replenish idea with general_unit status is ok, IF someone removes general itself from unit model.

Additionally battle autoresolve has tendency to save leaders (generals), meaning constatly returning, same stacks during AI movemet phase. And while u as a human player can control number of your squads, AI cannot unless scripted. So no squad elimination for AI, that leads to more and more stacks which will auto replenish, return, fight, retreat, replenish, return.... and on and on and on. AI goes into debt, money script kicks in. More units being created with auto replenish... and so on. Stack spam at its best, a thing 3.1 tries to fight.

On the other hand auto replenish for unique, AOR units is worth considering. (excluding mumakils)

I don't know how auto replenish is handled in E:TW and S2. But right now i have serious doubts it will work in MED2 engine.

[Adamar]

Thanks for the feedback

Historicaclly true but here we don't have realistic man behaviour, only game mechanics and it limitations.
Lets assume you have implemented general_unit status and made them recruitable. Now, during game you have created a stack of 10 units. Meaning, 10 units = 10 generals (each time u recruit unit u also recruit general), now during battle because of wrong decisions 6 of those general die even if their units suffer no casulties. Because of game mechanics, after the battle those 6 units will be deleted, and no script can save them. That leaves you seriously undermanned.

How can the general die but none of the units? Generals can be given HP's to counter deaths with balancing.

Additionally battle autoresolve has tendency to save leaders (generals), meaning constatly returning, same stacks during AI movemet phase. And while u as a human player can control number of your squads, AI cannot unless scripted. So no squad elimination for AI, that leads to more and more stacks which will auto replenish, return, fight, retreat, replenish, return.... and on and on and on. AI goes into debt, money script kicks in. More units being created with auto replenish... and so on. Stack spam at its best, a thing 3.1 tries to fight.

Surely this would make battles more decisive? If a half army was returned to the field and left two years to wonder around, it would bolster anyway from the local population it subjugated in raids/ traitor cultural minorities.

Yeah i think with the AOR units it is worth trying first, it would be a big task ofcourse and i am no modder.

[zax]

Thanks for the feedback


How can the general die but none of the units? Generals can be given HP's to counter deaths with balancing.

It was just an example to show how MED2 works, an assumption. DEAD general means UNIT REMOVED from game.

Surely this would make battles more decisive? If a half army was returned to the field and left two years to wonder around, it would bolster anyway from the local population it subjugated in raids/ traitor cultural minorities.

Decisive? in autoresolve? while u as a HUMAN can lead battle manually, AI cannot. U play Gondor, but AI rohan fights AND AUTORESOLVES vs AI isengard, meaning constant pushing from one side to another. Autoresolve is equation and number crunching, pure math, no decisivness here. And with increased number of stacks that DON'T DIE turns will take ages.

[jackenbu2]

While on the topic of Unit Replenishment I have a doubt. Here is the situation. I like to "create" new units that are essentially copies, especially AOR or special units. I give them slightly better stats, make them "unique_unit, general_unit" and set them as recruit able in only a particular region. Lindon Longspears -> Lindon Spearmasters (to server as governers and protectors so that Elladan, Elrohir, and Cirdan can be used in other ways. Pelargir Marines -> Pelargir Marine Marshall. I do this for all factions and set it so that there can only exist one of each at a time so don't call me a cheater!

The problem is that they do not replenish. Is the problem the unit size (they have 60 units sometimes)? I distinctly remember Elrond's BG replenishing though. Is the problem that they are not family members?

[smoesville]

I think it has something to do with the amount of men in a generals unit, a normal unit of spears will be bigger than a generals one.

PS
Thanks for reminding me of "unique_unit", i think i'll use it for the grey company

[jackenbu2]

Yeah, that is what I was thinking. They all seem to be at around fifty men right now so I suppose I'll just wear one down and see what happens. Closer observation is necessary.

If you make the Grey Company a unique unit don't forget that Aragorn's bodyguard counts as the one Either change his, copy the unit and make it unique, or make it trainable at the unique building at Bree, for example, with an initial unit and a replenish rate of like .01.

[smoesville]

It'll be for my Dúnedain submod, so for starters the grey company are a variant of the mounted Dúnedain, the normal BG are now rangers And i hadn't forgotten though your suggestions are helpful except i would choose Fornost rather than Bree (for other reasons aswell but mostly lore ).

[Emperor of Hell]

What's the use of unique_unit?

[jackenbu2]

Fornost makes more sense lore wise but I'm always lazy and just tag the recruitment onto a unique building

unique_unit is an "ability" in the EDU that sets the limit of a particular unit to 1

[Emperor of Hell]

Thanks mate, +rep

Wasn't someone asking for such a thing lately?

[jackenbu2]

Asking for rep? "please sir, would you be so kind as to think higher of me in the future?"