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  1. #1
    orange slice's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default The Holy Grail

    I was watching something interesting on the history channel, and there where talking about The Holy Grail, which some believe is a item that Jesus used when he lived, like the cup from the last supper or a blanket from the table of the last supper, and it really interested me that people thought that Jesus married Mary and had a family of there own, and they kids grew up to have kids, which some historians believe where the ancestors of the great familys in Europe. What also it a bit creepy and is that they believe there is Jesus blood in some people, and the Catholic church had to keep this a secret, because it would make God not really God, because it would have his blood in some people.

    As this is very interesting to me i wanted it share it with you guys, so what are your thoughts about this are there people around us that have some connection to God? or is the Holy Grail just a cup or a blanket used from the last supper?




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  2. #2

    Default Re: The Holy Grail

    ...

    Da Vinci Code, no? Let's not open that can of worms.

  3. #3
    MoROmeTe's Avatar For my name is Legion
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    Default Re: The Holy Grail

    Before the Da Vinci code there was The Blood and the Holy Grail, a book which promoted the theory our own orange slice presented and that forms the basis of Dan Brown's own novel attemp. But all of it was disproven as false as it was based on false information created by three people as a sort of distraction... This is what I gathered from a two hour piece on Discovery I kinda watched a few days ago...


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  4. #4

    Default Re: The Holy Grail

    Quote Originally Posted by Shyam Popat
    Let's not open that can of worms.
    You said it man... But I still want a comment on this one (too). Many people simply think that the Holy Grail is some sort of chalise. But it might be something very different: some people have said that it's simply the blood of Christ. I don't think we'll ever find the Holy Grail and, if we don't, we might never get to know if it's a chalise or not.

  5. #5

    Default Re: The Holy Grail

    I have a question for the Christians. Is the Grail important? If so, why?

    The way I see it, the Church is the only important thing. Relics are material possessions, and only "give power" or "luck" on Earth, a miniscule amount in proportion to Heaven. Jesus, as we know him, was a human. However, he is not a human, and neither his blood, nor his wine cup, matters.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The Holy Grail

    The story of the Holy Grail predates Christianity, it's merely another story they stole err "borrowed" from ancient Pagan religions. What I mean is that the symbol of a "grail" or chalice with magical properties was common in Pagan religions. This is a common theme in Christianity.
    Last edited by Drexxus Maximus; May 26, 2006 at 04:30 PM.

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  7. #7

    Default Re: The Holy Grail

    I have a question for the Christians. Is the Grail important? If so, why?
    No. It's noteriety comes from legends about knights trying to find it (made up legends) and modern obsession with it. The grail itself isn't important, its meaning is.
    The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be used until they try and take it away.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: The Holy Grail

    Quote Originally Posted by Shyam Popat
    I have a question for the Christians. Is the Grail important? If so, why?
    Well, I'm not a Christian, but I have studied the 'Grail' legends for many years.

    The short answer is that the Grail is not important to Christianity at all. It's not part of Christian doctrine, Christian tradition or Christianity in any way. It's a folk belief, based on some medieval fantasy fiction. End of story.

    In The Da Vinci Code Teabing points out to Sophie that there is no 'Holy Grail' in Leonardo's The Last Supper, making a big song and dance about this and saying that it's, somehow, a glaring and therefore significant omission. This is ridiculous. The 'Grail' does not appear in the gospel story Leonardo was painting, in fact it doesn't appear in Christianity at all - it was simply an element in some medieval fantasy stories that (eventually) took on some semi-Christian elements - so a 'grail' in Chertien's original story eventually became 'the Grail' which came to be seen as the 'cup of Christ'. But this was never more than medieval fiction and never seen as anything else. Asking why the 'Grail' isn't in The Last Supper makes about as much sense as asking why there are no Ewoks in an official portrait of President Ronald Reagan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drexx
    The story of the Holy Grail predates Christianity, it's merely another story they stole err "borrowed" from ancient Pagan religions.
    Ummm, the original writers of the fantasy fiction that developed into the legends of the 'Holy Grail' may have been influenced by earlier Celtic myths, but Christianity per se had nothing to do with this. As I've said, the 'Grail' has never played a part in Christian doctrine or belief at any time.

    Quote Originally Posted by the Grim Squeaker
    So... wait. Why were they hunting it if it had no significance?
    No-one really hunted it, but these quests were part of the fantasy fictions of the Middle Ages. In those stories, the question of its significance was precisely the point of those quests - they were aimed at finding out what the hell it was and what it meant. This is because the first ever story in which the 'Grail' appears, Chretien de Troyes' Perceval, introduced this thing (a serving dish, in his version) and then broke the story off unfinished.

    The story was then taken up by others, with various ideas about what it was and what it meant. Eventually the idea that it was 'the Cup of Christ' developed and finally the stories reached their climax with the perfect knight, Sir Galahad, 'achieving' the Grail quest and then the Grail was removed from the world.

    But this was all, as I've said, pure fantasy and never seen as anything else. Until modern times, of course, when every kook and his dog thinks they have 'found' the Grail or are about to. It seems it's in a box next to the one that contains the Ark of the Covenant: see Indiana Jones.

  9. #9
    Zenith Darksea's Avatar Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
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    Default Re: The Holy Grail

    The Da Vinci Code, and all these other books about a 'bloodline' from Christ have been thoroughly debunked by both Christian and non-Christian historians. It's been widely accepted now in the reputable academic community for quite some time that there is no evidence for this theory whatsoever. The 'evidence' that does exist has been found to be either hoaxes or misinterpretations.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: The Holy Grail

    Producing documentaries on the Da Vinci Code seems to be a major industry at the moment. It makes you wonder what channels like Discovery did before Dan Brown came along.

    Oh yes, I remember! Global warming; super tsunamis; super volcanos; JFK and Princess Di conspiracies; and did we really land on the moon in 1969. Anyone see a pattern here?

  11. #11

    Default Re: The Holy Grail

    The Da Vinci code "specials" on the History Channel are not facts. At best it is a stretch of a theory.
    The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be used until they try and take it away.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: The Holy Grail

    Quote Originally Posted by orange slice
    I was watching something interesting on the history channel, and there where talking about The Holy Grail, which some believe is a item that Jesus used when he lived, like the cup from the last supper or a blanket from the table of the last supper, and it really interested me that people thought that Jesus married Mary and had a family of there own, and they kids grew up to have kids, which some historians believe where the ancestors of the great familys in Europe. What also it a bit creepy and is that they believe there is Jesus blood in some people, and the Catholic church had to keep this a secret, because it would make God not really God, because it would have his blood in some people.

    As this is very interesting to me i wanted it share it with you guys, so what are your thoughts about this are there people around us that have some connection to God? or is the Holy Grail just a cup or a blanket used from the last supper?
    I think this whole "blood-line" argument/conspiracy is a backlash in response to the whole Trinity concept. As I have mentioned before, the concept of the Trinity was not "standardized" untill 100 years after Jesus.

    Perhaps some people felt frustrated over the Church's decision to label Jesus as God and in response those same people crafted the the whole "blood-line" conspiracy theory.

  13. #13

    Default Re: The Holy Grail

    Quote Originally Posted by Honor&Glory
    I think this whole "blood-line" argument/conspiracy is a backlash in response to the whole Trinity concept. As I have mentioned before, the concept of the Trinity was not "standardized" untill 100 years after Jesus.
    The idea that Jesus was (in some sense) God in human form actually appeared fairly early - Christians would say its seen in all the gospels (ie within 30-90 years of his execution). Personally, I'd say it only really begins to emerge in the last and latest gospel: John (ie 90-100 years after Jesus). The 'Trinity' - as in the way in which Jesus-as-God fitted in with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit - took much longer to work out. Debates over the fine points of that relationship went well into the Fifth Century.

    Perhaps some people felt frustrated over the Church's decision to label Jesus as God and in response those same people crafted the the whole "blood-line" conspiracy theory.
    Well, there was no 'Church' per se when the idea of Jesus being God developed, just a loose collection of small Christian communities scattered across the Mediterranean. People often use 'the Church' anachronistically in reference to this period, thinking there was some organised, hierarchical institution which somehow imposed ideas from above. That didn't come until centuries later.

    Dan Brown's novel has perpetuated the idea that some Christians - the Gnostics - believed Jesus was 'simply a mortal prophet' and believed Jesus married Mary Magdalene and this 'bloodline'. That's pure modern fantasy. The Gnostics actually didn't believe Jesus was a man at all: they regarded him as a pure spirit who simply had the appearance of a man, so their view of Jesus was not more 'human', it wasn't human at all. Dan Brown actually manages to get their theology totally backwards.

    As for Jesus marrying Mary and fathering children, there is precisely nothing in any of the Gnostic texts or anything we know about them to indicate this. That is based on some modern, clumsy misreadings of Gnostic texts and some wildly kooky wishful thinking. The Gnostics actually thought sex was bad, took a dim view of marriage and their elite were celibate.

    The 'bloodline' theory isn't ancient at all. In fact, it dates all the way back to 1982, when Holy Blood Holy Grail (Brown's main source of 'information') was published by three amateur kooks. It never appeared before then and was wholly invented out of their active imaginations and their bizarre approach to connecting 'evidence'.

    Quote Originally Posted by the Black Prince
    don't some of the "other" gospels that the Church chose not to include in the bible portray Jesus as, well, more human, and less a divine being?
    No. That's what Brown (following the HBHG authors) claims, but anyone who has studied the Gnostic gospels in context knows that this is completely wrong. The Jesus of the Gnostics was less human than the Jesus of the canonical gospels, not more. That's the main reason the Gnostic sects were marginalised and their 'gospels' were rejected. That and the fact that Gnosticism was a later, variant offshoot of Christianity and their texts were written up to 300 years after the fact.

    as i recall, the stuff that was proved to be fake was Les Dossiers Secret, which Dan Brown used as proof for the Priory of Sion. the mary magdalene marrying jesus and having children theory involved more than "evidence" that those...
    The 'Dossiers Secret' are definitely fakes and the so-called 'Priory of Sion' was clearly a clumsy Twentieth Century hoax. So all of Brown's claims about them and about Leonardo promptly collapse in a heap. But there is also no evidence in the Gnostic gospels or anywhere else that Jesus married anyone, let alone Magdalene.

    Brown tries to claim that the passage in the Gnostic Gospel of Philip where it says Jesus used to kiss Mary 'often' means they were married. This ignores the Gnostics' ambivalent attitude to marriage. More importantly, it ignores what this kiss meant to the Gnostics - in an earlier passage in Philip (which Brown doesn't bother to mention) Jesus explains the mystical and symbolic meaning of this kiss. It represented the passing and sharing of knowledge (the gnosis that gave the Gnostics their name), not anything romantic or sexual.

    Another Gnostic text has Jesus kissing his brother James on the mouth, embracing him and calling him 'My Beloved!'. If we're going to take Jesus kissing Mary at simplisitic face value and pretend he therefore married her, then we also have to conclude that he was having a homosexual and incestuous affair with his brother. Please don't tell Dan Brown about that passage; he might write another one of his crappy novels ...

    Brown also claims that 'any Aramaic scholar can tell you' that the word 'companion' used about Mary Magdalene means 'spouse'. Except the opinion of 'any Aramaic scholar' would be irrelevant, because the Gospel of Philip is written in Coptic. And the word in question - koinonos - isn't Aramaic or Coptic - it's a Greek loan word. Greek had plenty of words for 'wife', 'spouse', 'sexual partner', 'betrothed' etc, but koinonos wasn't one of them. It simply means 'travelling companion', 'associate' or 'business partner' with no sexual or romantic overtones at all.

    we have the theory as recently laid out by brown, in that the Grail is a codeword/symbol for the balance to Jesus, the Sacred Feminine found in most pagan religions, that ceased to exist when the church villified women and the act of intercourse.
    Which is, like all Brown's second-hand pseudo theories, a muddle of nonsense.

    there is also the theory that Grail Quest legends are merely yet another example of the Churhc stealing a common mythology from another religion and adapting it... in this case, Celtic Druidism, which is rife of tales about magic cups and cauldrons. one of the 13 Treasures of Britain was a Cauldron.
    There is some good evidence that these Celtic legends did influence or somehow inspire the Grail stories. But this is not a case of 'the Church' stealing anything. The Grail legends were simply medieval fantasy fiction. They were nothing to do with the Church, were never part of Church doctrine and were simply enteraining stories of a mystical nature which later took on some Christian significance. The Church had about as much to do with the Grail as MI6 has to do with James Bond.

    there is also the theory that Grail Quest legends are merely yet another example of the Churhc stealing a common mythology from another religion and adapting it... in this case, Celtic Druidism, which is rife of tales about magic cups and cauldrons. one of the 13 Treasures of Britain was a Cauldron.
    Considering that we could write what we 'know' about the historical Arthur on the back of a large postage stamp, it's pretty hard to say what his religion was. Given when he probably existed, it's actually more likely he was a Christian. Even if he wasn't, the Grail stories didn't become part of the Arthurian Cycle until the Twelfth Century when the 'Graal' appeared in Chretien de Troyes' unfinished romance Parceval. Chretien may have been influenced by earlier Celtic cup/cauldron stories via Brittany, but the 'Graal' (which he never explained and which had nothing to do with Christ or Arthur in his story) seems to have been his invention.

    In other words, all this Da Vinci Code-inspired Grail babble is a bit like people in 1000 years time looking at fragments of Tolkien, bits of Peter Jackson's movies and newpaper articles about those 'Hobbit' fossils they found in Indonesia and concluding that people in the Twenty-first Century were all three and a half feet tall.

    Quote Originally Posted by BKB
    There are many biblical text missing.
    There are many texts which were known to have been written very late by fringe sects of Christianity which actively rejected the traditions of Jesus' first followers and which were, therefore, not considered scriptural.

    The Philip gospel in the Gnostic texts is very interesting, especially in relation to the relationship between Mary Magdelane and Jesus the Nazerane. When he refers to Jesus kissing her on the mouth and loving her more than the other Apostles and his companion, with companion meaning a spouse in those days.
    So says the 'Gospel according to Dan Brown'. See above for the real story.

    It is very likely that Jesus being a young Jew and most probably a rabi of sort would have been married at an early age. If he wasn't it would have been a very strange occurance and highly unlikely.
    Not that strange, considering there was a strong tradition of holy celibacy in Judaism in his time. The elite of the Essenes were celibate. All of the Theraputae were celibate. The famous holy men Bannus and John the Baptist were celibate. Paul, himself a rabbi and a student of the famous Pharisee Gamaliel, was celibate. Jesus is reported as praising those who choose celibacy 'for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven'. So it was not the usual path, but it was a choice holy men could and did make.

    And 'Rabbi' wasn't a title or an office with any rules or expectations in Jesus' time - that came later. 'Rabbi' simply meant 'teacher'.

    I believe that Jesus could have had a spouse and had children.
    He could have, there's just zero evidence he did.

    Constantine had erased the majority of bible sources that portrayed Jesus as human and wanted only the divine aspect of his personality and that is the simple truth.
    This is more 'Gospel according to Dan Brown'. It's fantasy. Constantine had absolutely nothing to do with the choosing of which texts made up the Biblical canon and if those who did tried to erase 'the majority of bible sources that portrayed Jesus as human and wanted only the divine aspect of his personality' they did a really bad job. If they had wanted to do that, they should have included the Gnostic gospels (which make him totally divine) and left out Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, which have him doing very human things like getting angry, weeping, using humour, playing with kids and getting violent.

    The higher authorities in state and church destroyed not only Mary Magdelane reputation, she was not a ***** of any kind and was in fact from excellent lineage, but also the female personer turning it into a evil being, not to be trusted and there to tempt man rather than love him
    This is more Da Vinci nonsense. The Church never said Magdalene was a prostitute - that was simply a folk belief that arose later. And there is no evidence that she was 'from an excellent lineage', in fact we know nothing about her family at all. Brown got that bit of fantasy from a New Age author called 'Margaret Starbird' and it's based on nothing but her fertile imagination.

    Hint - The Da Vinci Code is a cheap thriller written by a High School teacher. It isn't a history text book and Dan Brown is an appalling researcher who manages to get almost all of his history totally wrong.
    Last edited by ThiudareiksGunthigg; May 20, 2006 at 05:02 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: The Holy Grail

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiudareiksGunthigg
    The idea that Jesus was (in some sense) God in human form actually appeared fairly early - Christians would say its seen in all the gospels (ie within 30-90 years of his execution). Personally, I'd say it only really begins to emerge in the last and latest gospel: John (ie 90-100 years after Jesus). The 'Trinity' - as in the way in which Jesus-as-God fitted in with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit - took much longer to work out. Debates over the fine points of that relationship went well into the Fifth Century.



    Well, there was no 'Church' per se when the idea of Jesus being God developed, just a loose collection of small Christian communities scattered across the Mediterranean. People often use 'the Church' anachronistically in reference to this period, thinking there was some organised, hierarchical institution which somehow imposed ideas from above. That didn't come until centuries later.

    Dan Brown's novel has perpetuated the idea that some Christians - the Gnostics - believed Jesus was 'simply a mortal prophet' and believed Jesus married Mary Magdalene and this 'bloodline'. That's pure modern fantasy. The Gnostics actually didn't believe Jesus was a man at all: they regarded him as a pure spirit who simply had the appearance of a man, so their view of Jesus was not more 'human', it wasn't human at all. Dan Brown actually manages to get their theology totally backwards.

    As for Jesus marrying Mary and fathering children, there is precisely nothing in any of the Gnostic texts or anything we know about them to indicate this. That is based on some modern, clumsy misreadings of Gnostic texts and some wildly kooky wishful thinking. The Gnostics actually thought sex was bad, took a dim view of marriage and their elite were celibate.

    The 'bloodline' theory isn't ancient at all. In fact, it dates all the way back to 1982, when Holy Blood Holy Grail (Brown's main source of 'information') was published by three amateur kooks. It never appeared before then and was wholly invented out of their active imaginations and their bizarre approach to connecting 'evidence'.



    No. That's what Brown (following the HBHG authors) claims, but anyone who has studied the Gnostic gospels in context knows that this is completely wrong. The Jesus of the Gnostics was less human than the Jesus of the canonical gospels, not more. That's the main reason the Gnostic sects were marginalised and their 'gospels' were rejected. That and the fact that Gnosticism was a later, variant offshoot of Christianity and their texts were written up to 300 years after the fact.



    The 'Dossiers Secret' are definitely fakes and the so-called 'Priory of Sion' was clearly a clumsy Twentieth Century hoax. So all of Brown's claims about them and about Leonardo promptly collapse in a heap. But there is also no evidence in the Gnostic gospels or anywhere else that Jesus married anyone, let alone Magdalene.

    Brown tries to claim that the passage in the Gnostic Gospel of Philip where it says Jesus used to kiss Mary 'often' means they were married. This ignores the Gnostics' ambivalent attitude to marriage. More importantly, it ignores what this kiss meant to the Gnostics - in an earlier passage in Philip (which Brown doesn't bother to mention) Jesus explains the mystical and symbolic meaning of this kiss. It represented the passing and sharing of knowledge (the gnosis that gave the Gnostics their name), not anything romantic or sexual.

    Another Gnostic text has Jesus kissing his brother James on the mouth, embracing him and calling him 'My Beloved!'. If we're going to take Jesus kissing Mary at simplisitic face value and pretend he therefore married her, then we also have to conclude that he was having a homosexual and incestuous affair with his brother. Please don't tell Dan Brown about that passage; he might write another one of his crappy novels ...

    Brown also claims that 'any Aramaic scholar can tell you' that the word 'companion' used about Mary Magdalene means 'spouse'. Except the opinion of 'any Aramaic scholar' would be irrelevant, because the Gospel of Philip is written in Coptic. And the word in question - koinonos - isn't Aramaic or Coptic - it's a Greek loan word. Greek had plenty of words for 'wife', 'spouse', 'sexual partner', 'betrothed' etc, but koinonos wasn't one of them. It simply means 'travelling companion', 'associate' or 'business partner' with no sexual or romantic overtones at all.



    Which is, like all Brown's second-hand pseudo theories, a muddle of nonsense.



    There is some good evidence that these Celtic legends did influence or somehow inspire the Grail stories. But this is not a case of 'the Church' stealing anything. The Grail legends were simply medieval fantasy fiction. They were nothing to do with the Church, were never part of Church doctrine and were simply enteraining stories of a mystical nature which later took on some Christian significance. The Church had about as much to do with the Grail as MI6 has to do with James Bond.



    Considering that we could write what we 'know' about the historical Arthur on the back of a large postage stamp, it's pretty hard to say what his religion was. Given when he probably existed, it's actually more likely he was a Christian. Even if he wasn't, the Grail stories didn't become part of the Arthurian Cycle until the Twelfth Century when the 'Graal' appeared in Chretien de Troyes' unfinished romance Parceval. Chretien may have been influenced by earlier Celtic cup/cauldron stories via Brittany, but the 'Graal' (which he never explained and which had nothing to do with Christ or Arthur in his story) seems to have been his invention.

    In other words, all this Da Vinci Code-inspired Grail babble is a bit like people in 1000 years time looking at fragments of Tolkien, bits of Peter Jackson's movies and newpaper articles about those 'Hobbit' fossils they found in Indonesia and concluding that people in the Twenty-first Century were all three and a half feet tall.



    There are many texts which were known to have been written very late by fringe sects of Christianity which actively rejected the traditions of Jesus' first followers and which were, therefore, not considered scriptural.



    So says the 'Gospel according to Dan Brown'. See above for the real story.



    Not that strange, considering there was a strong tradition of holy celibacy in Judaism in his time. The elite of the Essenes were celibate. All of the Theraputae were celibate. The famous holy men Bannus and John the Baptist were celibate. Paul, himself a rabbi and a student of the famous Pharisee Gamaliel, was celibate. Jesus is reported as praising those who choose celibacy 'for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven'. So it was not the usual path, but it was a choice holy men could and did make.

    And 'Rabbi' wasn't a title or an office with any rules or expectations in Jesus' time - that came later. 'Rabbi' simply meant 'teacher'.



    He could have, there's just zero evidence he did.



    This is more 'Gospel according to Dan Brown'. It's fantasy. Constantine had absolutely nothing to do with the choosing of which texts made up the Biblical canon and if those who did tried to erase 'the majority of bible sources that portrayed Jesus as human and wanted only the divine aspect of his personality' they did a really bad job. If they had wanted to do that, they should have included the Gnostic gospels (which make him totally divine) and left out Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, which have him doing very human things like getting angry, weeping, using humour, playing with kids and getting violent.



    This is more Da Vinci nonsense. The Church never said Magdalene was a prostitute - that was simply a folk belief that arose later. And there is no evidence that she was 'from an excellent lineage', in fact we know nothing about her family at all. Brown got that bit of fantasy from a New Age author called 'Margaret Starbird' and it's based on nothing but her fertile imagination.

    Hint - The Da Vinci Code is a cheap thriller written by a High School teacher. It isn't a history text book and Dan Brown is an appalling researcher who manages to get almost all of his history totally wrong.

    Don't believe i am a simple novice that has just read half of the Da Vinci Code and decided to post and don't talk down to me like i am a child. I have researched this topic many years before anyone had heard of Dan Brown. I also do not believe Christ died on the cross, you know and i know that he could not have died between 3-6 hours, it was impossible. Crucifixion was a long drawn out torture and many took a week to die. We know christ did have his legs broke and even if he had he wouldn't have died in such a short space of time. Couldn't have Christ who was not a prisoner of the state and had done nothing against Rome, been mock executed or at least put up in the cross, with the pain slightly numbed by a potion of sorts held on thesponge held up to him while he was on the cross? The resurrection i believe was Christ recovering from his wounds and after a no doubt near death experience his followes would have believed he had come back from the dead. That is alot more Plausible than some of the nonsense in the bible. The fundemantal fact is we do not and will never know what happened in Judea at the time as the history has been wrote and re-written with not sense left in any of the texts. But i do not believe a man whose life we do not know enough about with wholesale chapters missing from his teenage and young adult years (a time where a young man definetly begins to like the look of women and would think of marriage) can bed deemed as celebate, yes he was tortured and unlikely died on the cross but so did many thosuands of people in the period and they would not hae been lucky enough to die in 3 hours and we all the fables in bible if are to be taken with any truth we will never know the man behind these illusions weaved into stories

    As far as i'm concerned i do not believe that a young man like Jesus would not have married or had children. Apparently he was the son of God but he had normal characteristics of man and i believe he would have carried on as such. On a another note, although i believe Dav Vinci was not fond of the Church i don't believe in all this myseteries in his paintings. I believe it was subtle and often obvious **** taking of the church but leading to any hidden treasure? No i do not believe that.
    Last edited by BKB; May 21, 2006 at 04:43 AM.
    [In the women's room, which Larry had to use, he puts his water bottle in his pants instead of the trash to avoid being recognized]

    Producer's daughter: [enters] Hi mister. Thanks for fixing my doll.

    [hugs him]

    Larry: Aww, don't worry about it sweetheart.

    Producer's daughter: [looks at him, scared, and runs out] Mommy, mommy. The old man's in the bathroom, and he's got something hard in his pants.

    Curb Your Enthusiam

  15. #15

    Default Re: The Holy Grail

    Quote Originally Posted by BKB
    I also do not believe Christ died on the cross, you know and i know that he could not have died between 3-6 hours, it was impossible. Crucifixion was a long drawn out torture and many took a week to die. We know christ did have his legs broke and even if he had he wouldn't have died in such a short space of time.
    Remember the spear part?

  16. #16

    Default Re: The Holy Grail

    Quote Originally Posted by shenmueguru
    Remember the spear part?
    If we take that into consideration perhaps when Jesus had drank from the sponge the liquid was a knockout potion of sort to numb the pain which was perfectly plausable and maybe Longinus pierced Christ in another part of the body instead of the lung. Maybe a thrust to the side or stomach or a light wound which could be easily healed
    [In the women's room, which Larry had to use, he puts his water bottle in his pants instead of the trash to avoid being recognized]

    Producer's daughter: [enters] Hi mister. Thanks for fixing my doll.

    [hugs him]

    Larry: Aww, don't worry about it sweetheart.

    Producer's daughter: [looks at him, scared, and runs out] Mommy, mommy. The old man's in the bathroom, and he's got something hard in his pants.

    Curb Your Enthusiam

  17. #17

    Default Re: The Holy Grail

    Quote Originally Posted by BKB
    Don't believe i am a simple novice that has just read half of the Da Vinci Code and decided to post and don't talk down to me like i am a child. I have researched this topic many years before anyone had heard of Dan Brown.
    If you take the Gnostic gospels at face value, ignoring their date and context, then you can expect people to question your capacity to analyse these texts properly. If you claim 'companion' in Philip means 'spouse', when the word used definitely does not, then expect people to question your competence. If you claim that a 'rabbi' needed to marry in Jesus' time and ignore the tradition of holy celibacy in that period of Judaism, then expect people to question your grasp of the relevant material on the issue. If you claim that Constantine had something to do with the formation of the Bible, when there is precisely ZERO evidence to support this, then expect people to wonder if you actually know what you're talking about. If you think the Church declared Magdalene was a prostitute, when it did no such thing, then expect people to question your understanding.

    I also do not believe Christ died on the cross, you know and i know that he could not have died between 3-6 hours, it was impossible.
    Yes, because the Romans were really bad at making sure the people they executed were actually dead.

    Crucifixion was a long drawn out torture and many took a week to die.
    Sometimes. If they were very strong. The whole point of the flagellation before crucifixion was to ensure the weakened victim died more quickly.

    Couldn't have Christ who was not a prisoner of the state and had done nothing against Rome ...
    He was tried by the Roman Prefect after causing a disturbance in the Temple at a politically sensitive time, was condemned to a Roman form of death and executed by Romans with his claim to be 'King of the Jews' on a sign above his head. Does that sound like someone who the Romans thought 'had done nothing against Rome' to you?

    ... been mock executed or at least put up in the cross, with the pain slightly numbed by a potion of sorts held on thesponge held up to him while he was on the cross? The resurrection i believe was Christ recovering from his wounds and after a no doubt near death experience his followes would have believed he had come back from the dead.
    That's a great story. Pity it's full of holes. Were the Romans in on this charade? Who organised it? Why?

    That is alot more Plausible than some of the nonsense in the bible.
    The idea that he was executed, died and that his 'resurrection' was a belief his followers developed to justify their faith in a guy whose mission failed makes a lot more sense than the bizarre pantomime you describe above. Occam's Razor and all that ...

  18. #18

    Default Re: The Holy Grail

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiudareiksGunthigg
    The idea that he was executed, died and that his 'resurrection' was a belief his followers developed to justify their faith in a guy whose mission failed makes a lot more sense than the bizarre pantomime you describe above. Occam's Razor and all that ...
    Do you know how ridiculous that sounds, that a man came back from the dead? I know its the cornerstone of our faith but seriously think about it. Christ was a strong man and do you not think many others were tortured beforehand? And what did Christ do, commit an offence in the minor Jewish state and do you really think the Romans gave a **** about that? A lot of the Bibles were probably written years after the event and we have no idea who they were even written by. If we take the Gnostic Gospels into dispute we should take them all into dispute.

    I look at Christ the man, not Christ the myth. A very brave and special man, but a man nonetheless.
    [In the women's room, which Larry had to use, he puts his water bottle in his pants instead of the trash to avoid being recognized]

    Producer's daughter: [enters] Hi mister. Thanks for fixing my doll.

    [hugs him]

    Larry: Aww, don't worry about it sweetheart.

    Producer's daughter: [looks at him, scared, and runs out] Mommy, mommy. The old man's in the bathroom, and he's got something hard in his pants.

    Curb Your Enthusiam

  19. #19
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: The Holy Grail

    Surely there are more effective forms of backlash that could have been practiced? I mean that seems like a long-winded and overcomplicated backlash really.

  20. #20

    Default Re: The Holy Grail

    Quote Originally Posted by the Grim Squeaker
    Surely there are more effective forms of backlash that could have been practiced? I mean that seems like a long-winded and overcomplicated backlash really.
    Not really. What better way to imply that Jesus was only a man than to claim that he got married and had children?

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