About Imladris battle map...

[Laaer]

Well I'm playing with High Elves obviously. I've read some stuff about Imladris custom settlement being buggy, mostly people were saying there is no place to move your units etc.. But that was not much of a problem for me as my garrison wasn't that big when the OotMM cheat stack (The stack with trolls and heavy infantry which is given to OotMM when I captured High Pass) sieged Imladris. I was like ' Damn! I'm gonna lose Imladris.' so to maximize my chances I rallied out my army and killed as many of the enemy with my archers. The next turn they attacked but in the battle map they sent only a troll unit which got slaughtered by Elrond and his Eldarinwe Spearmen, they did not try to capture the settlement or kill my army. Is this a common bug, is something wrong with the AI in custom settlement maps or just Rivendell?

Edit-Update:

I noticed that most of the people posting replies miss the point of my thread. So I write again:

- Nobody is complaining (at least not me) about defense being hard in Imladris,
- I am not complaining about the lack of space in the map
- I am not complaining about moving units through bridges being hard, in fact I haven't tried.
- What I try to point out is: AI pathfinder is problematic in Imladris and most of their army does not move, they just sit at where they started. So, if the battle time-limit is turned on you can just kill them with your archers and wait for the time to finish and you win. If, it's not on then it will be even more frustrating.

With these facts pointed out. Do you guys want attacking armies to sit and do nothing? Is this lore-accurate? Or does this enhance gameplay? NO!
I, also wouldn't really want Imladris to be changed, it is beautiful and realistic/lore-accurate but it is unplayable. NOT hard, extremely easy thus unplayable.

[webba84]

Ive experienced the same thing two times now. Both times the ai sieged many of their units got stuck on the map and didnt attack at all. The Rivendell map is beautiful and Im amazed that they have managed to do custom maps like that but its almost impossible to play on. I think I would prefer a less accurate recreation of the movie Rivendell if it meant that there were less problems with pathfinding, more room to move units and the camera didnt keep dropping out from under me because I scrolled over the edge of a massive cliff.

Ive had pathfinding problems on other custom settlements as well, noticeably at Isengard where units trying to run off the wall ended up smeared half way across the map. In the scheme of things its all pretty small issues that affect only a tiny part of the game and since settlement battle map design is ridiculously hard and they have done an amazing job Im not going to complain about it.

[Ultra123]

though on the other hand i fin the pathfinding in minas tirith to be pretty spot on i have no issues there except the fact ccant put units on walls before the 1st, though thats minor, i also have rivendell issues, huge FPS drop for no apparent reason (im ok in other custom settlements) and ai cant seem to get their army into a start pos for them to begin to attack. seems like the ai must get his narmy all into exact positions before he attacks, and when a units gets stuck on a siege tower (which is totally pointless for rivendell) the entire army will just sit there until i 'liberate' said units from their stuck positions.


its probably because the orc armies have large units, though id rather see imladris changed against lore to fix this rather then orcs de-sized.

[Jovan90]

I agree, played a HE campaign too, all is great, but Imladris, although beautiful, is a nightmare to play on.

And I think I can say that I am not the only one who would like to see Rivendell in a more 'total war' way, a map has to be playable and that should be the priority no.1, if it can be beautiful and lore-accurate good, but this is a game, gameplay is the main thing.

[Bobz]

It's a shame coming from the fantastic amount of work that has gone into creating Rivendell, it is a really nice map, but ultimately it is just too hard to play on. Besides I had thought it comprised more than just the House of Elrond, which is all the map shows. It just does not seem to be very defensible - certainly not the important Elf haven it is meant to be.

I would prefer if Imladris was presented as a generic Elven city - that way we keep the Elven feel and have a good map to play on.

[Legourou]

You guys are forgetting: Imladris was never a stronghold to begin with. It was an outpost at best.

The elves in the books had the same problem the player has now (Hard to defend. Cramped space.) Their solution? Fight outside Imladris. Elves are excellent ambushers. Keep the bulk of your army in the excellent ambushing places outside the city.

The bridges make for awesome choke points. Keep scouts or towers all over your lands so you have a big heads up anytime people come near.

[Laaer]

@Legorou I agree with you. Imladris is not a stronghold and it's supposed to be hard to defend. My main tactic with elves is to attack the enemy armies first with my archers and cripple them until I run out of ammo and then withdraw, I used this tactic when the OotMM stack approached Imladris too. But once they got stuck, It was easy for me to annihilate all the army. I killed like 3500 and lost only 50-70.
I don't complain about cramped space, in fact I don't complain about anything as this bug makes defending Imladris very easy for me The thing is if you check the time-limit in battles, it is impossible for AI to capture Imladris.
Maybe they got stuck because their army was too big, or because they brought siege towers etc. I don't know, maybe next time they won't get stuck.

[webba84]

You guys are forgetting: Imladris was never a stronghold to begin with. It was an outpost at best.

The elves in the books had the same problem the player has now (Hard to defend. Cramped space.) Their solution? Fight outside Imladris. Elves are excellent ambushers. Keep the bulk of your army in the excellent ambushing places outside the city.

The bridges make for awesome choke points. Keep scouts or towers all over your lands so you have a big heads up anytime people come near.

You misunderstand the problem everyone is talking about. For one thing its not too hard to defend, its too easy because 90% of the enemy army will never actually move during the battle due to the pathfinder ai having a massive panic attack. The point is that the map is incredibly annoying to play on. Beautiful and quite amazing the first time you see it but incredibly incredibly frustrating to actually spend 15 minutes trying to move troops around on the roads and bridges you cant click on with the camera that keeps falling off cliffs.

Nobody thinks defending Imladris is too hard. We think the map would be better if it was less pretty and more conducive to gameplay. Also, it would be slightly less game breaking if the ai could actually take the settlement. As long as the HE player doesnt auto resolve and has time limit turned on they can never ever lose the region. If they dont have time limit on, well, its going to be a long long long long long battle.

[Toho]

i guess the easiest way to fix this is put the attacker in a location where they can just 'walk inside' therefore siege weapons would be useless since the gate is already 'open'

[webba84]

i guess the easiest way to fix this is put the attacker in a location where they can just 'walk inside' therefore siege weapons would be useless since the gate is already 'open'

So you havent actually played on the Rivendell map then. The attacker already starts in that position and there are no gates anywhere on the map. Just play a battle on it and you will understand.

[XtReMeDeAfNeSs]

I have to agree with web. I love the Imladris map but I find it impossible to lose it. I think its fine the way it is but the roads and bridges should be slightly expanded and transparent blocks be put over the waters so the camera won't drop. Of course, that's not something I can do so I'm just going to enjoy it as is for now.

[webba84]

I think simply making the main road wider would probably solve a lot of problems with it, I would quite like the cliffs below Rivendell to be made a lot shorter too, for camera control reasons. The fact remains though that when taking the mod as a whole this is only a small issue, and shouldn't detract from our appreciation of it at all.

edit - Transparent blocks, what a good idea!

[PaulH]

The map is stunning, loreful and would work perfectly in it's current state for filming one of those opening videos when choosing a faction, however it really does not work in a game such as total war as there is not even enough room to set up your units at the beginning of the battle in any organised fashion. In my opinion these should be done:

1) The gardens where the Gazebo is (the larger bit of ground just outside the largest "House") needs to be both expanded to have about twice as much garden as before, but also to have the tree's laid out better so that they do not cause an inability to place units.
2) If possible, it needs to become possible to place units upon the bridges, possibly widening or lengthening them will do that.
3) The slot of land between the two bridges is extremely small and to be honest it is pretty useless as it is a complete struggle to place a unit on it of any substantial size. Setting up your armies should not be so awkward if the plot of land is made larger.
4) The first bridge into Imladris I think should be made far longer and alittle wider. Gameplay-wise it is a useless choke point and I personally feel from an aethestic viewpoint, it looks somewhat.. wrong.
5) In my opinion the scope of the battlefield would be smaller, as the enemies start so far away that these pathing issues are more and more likely to occur even before they reach the "city" itself, perhaps if the scope of the "House of Elrond" is increased in size then the enemy could start at the top of the slope leading to it, rather than around the bend.

I also found another city which is a right pain in the bumholio, which is Minas Tirith. In my opinion the battle should only be played out over the first 4 levels of the City as lets be honest... if they take the first four levels then they pretty much own the place (what with the seat of power occupying the seventh level, and the gardens/houses of healing occupying the 6th, there isn't much left to offer resistance). I feel you could make a map which allows more gates and walls to be used by focusing only on the first 4 levels (as it is a wee bit annoying to not have gates with those gateways), but also it would hopefully help combat the numerous pathing and camera issues that arise from having to fight up the 7 levels.

Also, from a lore point of view regarding Moria, the Bridge of Khazad Dum is supposed to be a choke point for invaders to fight across before they can gain access to the city. With the slope that avoids this entirely, it makes the bridge totally redundant and allows attackers a far easier method into the city which frankly is extremely easy already due to there being no external defences like Ballista Towers to worry about. In my opinion the slope should remain but only on the defending side of the bridge, meaning that if an attacker claims the bridge they have free access to exploit the different routes through the city.

To be honest, for me, the main concern with all these maps is the camera. Despite them all looking visually stunning, the camera's make them almost unplayable for me (Isenguard is fine though, and Osgiliath, with Minas Tirith being the worst offender for me).

[Ultra123]

i dont find minas tirith so bad, just the fact that you can place units on subsequent walls, its imladris thats the criminal here.

[CoconutFred]

I'd actually prefer if the Imladris of the books, not the movies was used. The settlement in its present state is amazing, but the book's Imladris is far more open and likely much easier for the AI in pathfinding. Tolkien's Rivendell was actually just Elrond's Homely House set in a massive valley surrounded by sheer cliffs. The one downside of it compared to the settlement shown in the movies is that the book's Rivendell has more wooded areas.

J.R.R. Tolkien's original watercolor of what he imagined Rivendell to be (yes, he was also an artist):



Alan Lee's Imladris, based on Tolkien's:




Compare this to the movie's Rivendell, which is much more narrow, cramped, and harder to assault, with more chokepoints. The book's Rivendell might actually be easier to map, as it is a more conventional map, with Rivendell's buildings being on relatively flat ground. Deployment areas should also be more simplified. Tolkien happened to base his Rivendell off of a real-life location in Switzerland, Lauterbrunental. Height mapping could then be basded off of a real location.

[Ultra123]

OFF TOPIC

i do apologize coconut fred, but your signature pic is hilarious

[webba84]

OFF TOPIC

i do apologize coconut fred, but your signature pic is hilarious

Agreed

That Alan Lee artworks is amazing, as his stuff always is. Hey, doest anyone have know the Rivendell valley artwork that was on one of the older book covers which had people riding along the road into it? I seem to remember that being another good piece.

[Ultra123]

yes i have those original books right here that your speaking of wonderful piece indeed ill see if i can find it on google.


dam google doesnt seem to have the images on my copy, though ive had these books a very large portion of my 22 years maybe since i was 5, so pre-dates the movies by far...

[Jovan90]

What is wrong in this thread, and a trend on most forums, is when someone asks for change, people start talking about how it is not necessary because it is not difficult as it is.

I am for a change of Imladris, and as many people here it has NOTHING to do with difficulty.
The town is ridiculously easy to defend, but by using bugs.
I dont like the fact that I can't cross the first bridge when defending, and the deployment area is useless.
I can only click on attack to cross the bridge, and then, good luck coming back.
The AI is buggy on the map, they build and tow siege machines they dont need, it is just stupid.

To all you people saying Imladris should be defended on the bridges- yes, maybe, still the OOTM can come from the pass to the north before you can notice them, and cross the first bridge. So, the solution is to hold units on that bridge at all times.
Well you see, Imladris gives me 4 units free of upkeep, and I like that fact. With eldar units that is 1300-1400 gold PER TURN in upkeep. HUGE THING. So by holding bridges, you spend more money than Imladris is worth, and cripple your plans on other fronts. BAD

[Nõwë]

I agree that the Last Homely House is gorgeous, and that it is not suitable to enjoyable play - the latter chiefly because the AI is at a loss as to how to handle it.

Jov' usefully points out the substantial savings to be made with a garrison; but maybe the difficulty of taking Imladris (and Lorien) - due to the 'magic' of the two Elevn Rings and their bearers - would be best simulated by having forts at useful chokepoints around them. Difficult to take and free upkeep too.