Crusade Byzantine unit questions

[ByzantineLover]

Title says all. Just a few questions I have concerning a few Byzantine units in the Crusades campaign of the Kingdoms expansion. I'd be thankful if anyone can help answer them?

1. Latinkon, Kataphractoi and Archontopoulai. Latinkon have a higher charge bonus while Archontopoulai have a higher attack. Which of these three would you say is better at close combat, after the inital charge?

2. Dismounted Latinkon and Dismounted Byzantine Lancers. Which gets the better upgrades/is the overall better units?

[Silverheart]

1. Latinkon is my personal favorite, and they usually perform better. Also, they are available earlier and in larger numbers.
I think Archontopulai have maces as secondary weapon, which would make them better suited for close combat with heavily armoured foes, such as other heavy cavalry.

2. Dismounted Latinkon perform a little better initially, but the Dismounted Byzantine Lancers get more upgrades and eventually become at least equal.
So, Dismounted Latinkon are preferable if unupgraded, but the Dismounted Lancers are better if they have full upgrades.

[tomogawa]

1. Latinkon is my personal favorite, and they usually perform better. Also, they are available earlier and in larger numbers.
I think Archontopulai have maces as secondary weapon, which would make them better suited for close combat with heavily armoured foes, such as other heavy cavalry.

2. Dismounted Latinkon perform a little better initially, but the Dismounted Byzantine Lancers get more upgrades and eventually become at least equal.
So, Dismounted Latinkon are preferable if unupgraded, but the Dismounted Lancers are better if they have full upgrades.

Acutally, the Kataphratoi have maces.

[ByzantineLover]

Thanks for your help. A few more questions (I swear, these will be the last ones).

In pitched battles, which tend to be better/which would you recommend?

1. Byzantine Guard Archers (numbers and fire arrows) or Vardariotai (mobility)?

2. Bombards or other pre-gunpowder artillery? If the latter, which one?

3. Dismounted Byzantine Lancers (better defense and attack) or Byzantine Spearmen (numbers and cavalry bonus)?

Again, thanks for all your help so far. I've decided to give up on Alamanoi, as I find that, having a low defense they tend to die too quickly, and don't really measure up to other two-handed sword units like Zwei Handers, Forlorn Hope and Gotland Footmen.

[tudor93]

Thanks for your help. A few more questions (I swear, these will be the last ones).

In pitched battles, which tend to be better/which would you recommend?

1. Byzantine Guard Archers (numbers and fire arrows) or Vardariotai (mobility)?

2. Bombards or other pre-gunpowder artillery? If the latter, which one?

3. Dismounted Byzantine Lancers (better defense and attack) or Byzantine Spearmen (numbers and cavalry bonus)?

Again, thanks for all your help so far. I've decided to give up on Alamanoi, as I find that, having a low defense they tend to die too quickly, and don't really measure up to other two-handed sword units like Zwei Handers, Forlorn Hope and Gotland Footmen.

well ...
1. use both ... I mean, guard archers are foot archers and vardariotai are HA, different units for completely different purposes IMO;
-use HA to harras the enemy (especially the general like =Bright= said) - maybe 2-3 units in each army;
-guard archers to ... to do whatever other archers do: kill the enemy infantry;

2. bombards are pretty awful against units, use them against walls;
3. again, different units for different purposes: dbl against infantry (they have swords) and Byzantine Spearmen to hold the main line (and absorb the enemy knight's charge; they are not so good against other infatry)

[ByzantineLover]

Okay, thanks for your help guys, I really appreciate it. I've decided to go for three styles of armies.

Offensive (If I want to just rush the enemy):

Alamanoi (against infantry, especially knights)
Byzantine Gunners (against armoured troops/morale damage)
Kataphractoi (AP bonus/against skirmishers and archers)
Latinkon (charge bonus/against skirmishers and archers)

Defensive (If I want the enemy to come to me):

Dismounted Latinkon (to deal w/swordsmen and spearmen)
Byzantine Spearmen (to deal with cavalry)
Byzantine Guard Archers (to deal with horse archers/soften up advancing forces)
Latinkon (charge bonus/against skirmishers and archers)
Greek firethrowers (?) (morale damage/help protect infantry flanks)

Horse archer army (to deal with infantry/spearmen heavy armies. F-ing Principality Of Antioch):

Vardariotai
Byzantine Cavalry

Another question: Did the Byzantines (Post-Justinian (?) ) ever field troops similar to Comitatenses and Plumbatarii?

[Aeratus]

Melee: Archontopoulai > Kataphract > Latinkon (Latinikon have the same damage as the Kat (8), but the Kat has AP maces rather than swords, which means it does much more actual damage. The Archon has the highest damage (11), but without AP maces. Total defense is about the same across the board, but the Kataphract is slightly better because it has higher armor, while the Latinkon has higher shield, and the Archon has higher defense skill.)

Charge: Archontopoulai > Kataphract > Latinkon. (Archon and Kataphract have the eastern armored horse, which has a much higher mass value than the Latinkon's heavy horse, so they also have a better charge. Archon is better than Kat in charge because of higher damage, which factors into the charge).

Other comparisons: Speed (Latinikon >> Archontopoulai = Kataphract); Stamina (Kataphract > Archontopoulai >> Latinkion)

Quick references:
http://m2tw.warlore.org/units/Latink...paign=crusades
http://m2tw.warlore.org/units/Kataph...paign=crusades
http://m2tw.warlore.org/units/Archon...paign=crusades

As for the infantry units, Dismounted Latinkon has +2 attack, +1 charge, +2 armor, and +1 defense skill over the Dismounted Byzantine lancer. So they are better in almost every way except stamina and heat fatigue. In terms of upgrades, the Byzantine lancer can have a maximum of +3 (gold) armor, while the Dismounted Latinkon can only get +1 armor, so the initial armor advantage of the Latinkon can be negated by upgrades. Still, it is better in attack, charge and overall defense.

[ByzantineLover]

Thanks for your advice. I've been shifting between Archontopoulai and Latinkon and Dismounted Byzantine Lancers and Dismounted Latinkon for a while. In the end, I've decided to go with Latinkon and Dismounted Latinkon, and a strategy which involves a good balance of offense and defense (two types of infantry, supported by missiles, w/cavalry and artillery on the flanks).

One last question, if I was using this method, which would be better?

1. Byzantine Spearmen or Alamanoi?
2. Byzantine Guard Archers or Byzantine Gunners?

[tudor93]

1. Byzantine Spearmen or Alamanoi?

well ... I don't think you can compare them, I mean ... use both: spearmen against cavalry (you can put them in your first line, they hold the line (they are defensive units) while you flank the enemy with cavalry/other heavy infantry), because they are weak against other infantry units;
alamanoi are those guys with AP maces IIRC ? use them against heavy infantry or against enemy spearmen, don't let the enemy cavalry charge into them because they don't have spears (thus the spear bonus) and will get masacred

2. Byzantine Guard Archers or Byzantine Gunners?

in this case it is the same, use archers but also use gunners (maybe 1-2 units); I don't have much experience with gunners but from what I read on this forum in many posts I know that they are used to panic the enemy, they have short range so they can only fire maybe once or twice before they are engaged in melee, but with those 2 voleys they can drop the enemy morale

[ByzantineLover]

alamanoi are those guys with AP maces IIRC ?

Actually, these are the Alamanoi:

http://m2tw.warlore.org/units/Alaman...paign=crusades

The unit you were probably thinking of was the Pronoia Infantry. At least, I think so. They're the only Byzantine infantry I know of that use maces.

http://m2tw.warlore.org/units/Pronoi...paign=crusades

Thanks for your advice and for Silverheart's advice. Still undecided about spearmen or Alamanoi, but I think I'll go with Silverheart's advice and use Guard Archers instead of Gunners, with one or two units of Firethrowers.

[tudor93]

Actually, these are the Alamanoi:

http://m2tw.warlore.org/units/Alaman...paign=crusades

The unit you were probably thinking of was the Pronoia Infantry. At least, I think so. They're the only Byzantine infantry I know of that use maces.

http://m2tw.warlore.org/units/Pronoi...paign=crusades

Thanks for your advice and for Silverheart's advice. Still undecided about spearmen or Alamanoi, but I think I'll go with Silverheart's advice and use Guard Archers instead of Gunners, with one or two units of Firethrowers.

Oh yes, my mistake, sorry if I confused you, I haven't played TW games in a while
Still, the Pronoia have maces, are those AP weapons ? in the unit description it doesn't say, but I know that maces are AP
And back OT: I still think that you should use both, alamanoi are 2h heavy infantry, they will get crushed by cavalry charge, use them to flank and your spearmen to hold the main line

[Silverheart]

When playing as the Byzantines in the Crusade campaign, it´s better to use Byzantine Guard Archers.
Instead of gunners, take a unit or two of Flamethrowers with your army for short-range duties.

[PrestigeX]

You might want to have 1 or 2 units of Gunners to stand as a front rank with your infantry. They could get a volley or two off at the enemy, could heavily impact their morale / route low grade troops etc.

but don't rely on them as a "fire base" - don't expect them to directly kill too much. Byz Guard Archers are preferrable for all-round utility, they're very good archer unit -esp against many of the light infantry of Muslims, or all those Horse Archers / etc.

hand-gunners, naffatun/flame - its extremely effective when you face up against an army that has tons and tons of infantry.

[Aeratus]

I'd use Pronoia for flanking and Alamanoi for the center line. This is because Pronoia has a faster move speed (easier to flank), whereas Alamanoi has a much better charge (easier to charge straight ahead rather than when flanking).

Shields have no relevance in whether the unit is more easily killed in cavalry charges or not. Only the mass and stats have relevance. Pronoia and Alamanoi have the same mass values, and about the same stats. So both die against cavalry charges in about the same rate.

[=Bright=]

1. depends on whether you want to outflank an enemy or if you want to just pepper them with arrows until they're dead. Vardariotai offer the ability to rather easily kill the enemy general.

2. against troops definitely pre-gunpowder artillery. against walls I'd use bombards.

3. both?

[ByzantineLover]

1. depends on whether you want to outflank an enemy or if you want to just pepper them with arrows until they're dead. Vardariotai offer the ability to rather easily kill the enemy general.

Usually, I tend to try what the Romans did and make the enemy come to my forces. For that, I tend to choose a combination of Guard archers, Gunners and Firethrowers if they get too close for ranged, Dismounted Latinkon and Dismounted Byzantine Lancers for close-quarter fighting, and Archontopoulai and Kataphractoi for flanking, attacking artillery and chasing down routing forces.

Ingame, often my biggest enemies are the Turks and the Principality of Antioch. The Turkish armies have lots of horse archers and the POA armies have lots of knights and spearmen. Which has a bigger advantage against both?

I do like Vardariotai, but I like the Guard Archers more because they have bigger numbers and can use fire arrows. I also read that missile cavalry tend to be easier to hit than just normal archers.

[Silverheart]

I believe the late Byzantine Empire kept their military tradition straight through the medieval age and right up to their defeat - however, after the battle of Manzikert in 1071, the Byzantines began to rely more and more on mercenaries as the centuries passed.
So they probably maintained the same soldiers as before, but with increasing numbers of foreign troops as the centuries went by (personally, I think the Byzantines´ heavy use of mercenaries is fairly well portrayed in their unit roster)