how effective are billmans vs cavalry?

[WARFEICK]

when i started the to play i used to put both bailman and spearman in my army.

bailman for infantry and spear man for anti calvary,


however i red in the bailman description, that he is also effective,
vs calvary, however i decided not count on it and i kept building calvary

im in the late period now i have havy bailman,

and since spearman are not so good in an ongoing malle combat such as bailman,

i like to ask u. how good is bailman

or a havy bailman vs calvary?

[Avatar]

Basically, if cavalry charge billmen then the billmen are toast. You don't want to treat them like spearmen who might actually withstand a charge. What they are very good at is tearing up cavalry that are already engaged in combat.

[Macunaíma]

I played the battle of Agincourt today, and did the mistake of charging heavy billment into charging cavalry (to their front). They were 60-80 (I don't really remember) and in a few seconds there were just 6 of them .

[Aeratus]

Billmen are nearly useless in the vanilla version of the game. They are not considered spearmen by the game's engine, but are considered poleaxe infantry (similar to dismounted english knights). What's worse is that poleaxe infantry are very weak because of the bugged two-handed weapon animation in vanilla. And furthermore, Billment don't even have good stats compared to other poleaxe units.

[PrestigeX]

They're really cheap, and you can get them early. Since they haven't got shields, you want to atleast have them at ug1 - leather armor. Later, Heavy Billmen instead.

Spears in front, billmen behind.

Alternatively, Longbows in front with stakes - billmen behind. Spearmen and cavalry on the flanks.

Once cavalry are engaged, billmen can move in and start 'hooking/pulling/bashing' them quite effectively. Their Armor Piercing and Cavalry Bonus, makes them effective.
They should never be used to absorb an enemy charge - whether it's cav or infantry. They're more for counter-charge, flanking, or 2nd rank duties.

[Akodo]

Billmen seem to have very little bonus vs cavalry, however they have a pretty decent attack and get a charge bonus. If you see cavalry coming at your spearmen you of course stop them and they brace. If you see cavalry coming at your billmen, you charge your billmen at the cavalry.

Of course if they are elite heavy infantry coming at you straight on...your billmen will go flying. However, billmen are cheap. A pair of billmen units work great against cavalry. Cav charges one, you then charge your billmen into the side of the cav. (Ideally you'd hit them in the rear, but it's easier and quicker to hit them on the side. You loose a lot of men BUT you loose cheap men and they loose expensive heavy cav. Yes ideally you'd get the cavalry to charge into spearmen, but usually the computer and other players aren't that dumb...they'll charge the bill unit and then the poor english spear militia are left to try and flank the cav. Two units of bill in short fat formation (not a long thin line) each a little ways apart work great in support of each other.

Also, billmen on the side seem to do a lot of damage as the cavalry tries to pull themselves out of the melee.

[D00d]

Spearmen have +8 attack vs cavalry, billmen (and some other polearms) have +4. But, billmen are also AP, so their have roughly the same offense vs heavily armored cav as spears (usually more as their base attack is higher).

They aren't that good anti-cav because of lower defense, but more importantly because of lower mass. It's a hidden stat which is compared against the mass of mounts when cavalry charges. This is why cavalry tramples infantry. It's not their attack, it's their mounts. Billmen have the same mass as most infantry: 1.0, while spearmen have 1.5 which makes them a lot more resistant to mount crush.

[WARFEICK]

ok so let me see if i got it right,

against a calvary charge spearman are better bun in egeged malle combat, the billman are betters.

did i got it right?

[PrestigeX]

ok so let me see if i got it right,

against a calvary charge spearman are better bun in egeged malle combat, the billman are betters.

did i got it right?

not quite... Spearmen are better at stopping a charge , cavalry or infantry. Billmen aren't necessarily better in melee, but they are effective for their armor piercing and cavalry bonus.

You will start to see what the others are saying, once you get to the game and set it up ... 4 spear units in front. 4 billmen units behind the spears.

Cav / Infantry engages your spearmen. Then, you have the billmen attack the enemy.

Just don't use billmen as a front rank, they're rubbish for that sort of thing. You can tell just looking at them, they have no shield, their weapon is short, etc... So they are best used vs. foes that are already tangled up.

you can also use billmen with your cavalry -- say, your cav vs enemy cav, and then billmen show and help your Cavalry.

if you can choose between .. 8 spears... or 8 units of mixed infantry (say, 4 spears, 4 bills) its generally better in this game to go with "combined arms" forces - regardless of faction / units

[WARFEICK]

ok tnx but here is another quustion


so here is another questions

right now im in the late period of the game.

and at this i can havy dismunted kinghts and stuff witch are quite a big on armor, so i wonder.

if knights have good armor. witch like u said the billman is quite lack in.

isent it be better idear just to stop build a billman and simply build dismunted knigghts only?

[TWWolfe]

ok tnx but here is another quustion


so here is another questions

right now im in the late period of the game.

and at this i can havy dismunted kinghts and stuff witch are quite a big on armor, so i wonder.

if knights have good armor. witch like u said the billman is quite lack in.

isent it be better idear just to stop build a billman and simply build dismunted knigghts only?

Units like knights are what the billmen are best against, actually, due to them being effective against armor. you'll want a mix of units in your army, so throw in a few of each.

[bbc]

Very... ing... effective.

[tudor93]

Units like knights are what the billmen are best against, actually, due to them being effective against armor. you'll want a mix of units in your army, so throw in a few of each.

no, they are crap even against spear militia (so there's no sense in talking about how effective they are against heavy infantry or against already engaged cavalry) in vanilla because the 2h animations are up ; this problem is solved in kingdoms

[General Dithrick]

Basically, Spearman are more effective withstanding a charge from cavalry (usually) and billman could be used as a support unit for spearmean, that's what I would do anyway.

[Ishan]

Cavalry can roll all over them lol, only worth flanking from backwards or on an already engaged cavalry in melee, also don't forget the 2Handed bug.

[WARFEICK]

im aware to the fact to put dismunted against charging calvary unit

is basicly like expecting the bawling pings to stop ball this is pretty much why i will have my spears man for


what i asked is assuming that i want my billman only for the engaging combat (not stoping a charge)


and from what people saids here there defense is crappy, unlike the knigts that have cool shiny armos

should i keep building billmans

?along with dismunted or is just a weast of money i shuld stop us billmans

[Avatar]

If you are late in the game then you can presumably keep pumping out a decent number of armored swordsmen from your fortresses, which are much better than billmen in every way, as well as having remarkably low upkeep for their quality level. It's quite hard to justify keeping a lot of billmen in your roster at that point.

[Aeratus]

Billmen are extremely cheap, even cheaper than spearmen. However, later on, money won't be an issue anyways.