Tips for Orcs of Gundabad?

[Stonefield]

I would like to hear what kind of strategies and especially tactics you use with the goblin factions. I am desperately short of advice here.



I am playing Orcs of Gundabad, TATW 3.1 with Baron Samedi's. I have most of the scripts turned off but not the Garrison script, so I guess my playing experience is almost like in vanilla. The most important scripts I have are the one that limits the stack spam (or should limit...) and Total Diplomacy (which I use to force ceasefires mainly). My campaign difficulty is Medium (as I normally like to turtle and build my empire a bit) but the battle difficulty is on VH.

I am on turn 98, so I have met the last Barracks event but I haven't got the money to build the better facilities. That means I have to cope with Snaga Stalkers and Rhudaur mercenaries mainly, with occasional Snaga Archers and Warg Riders.


Because 3.1 seems to force players in rush play, I did just that. I have conquered the small rebel settlements Pitkäranta, Ruskea Vene, Athilin (the new village north of Fornost Erain), Coldfells and recently Hoarwell. I managed to take also Imladris quite early on from the High Elves but I border them in the west (they have Nenuial). The Dwarves took Gundabad by surprise, which was economically quite a blow. My eastern borders (excluding the farthest north – Dwarves there) are secure because the OotMM are holding the Misty Mountains territories. As you could expect, the Free Peoples of Eriador, which I border in the west and in the south are the most aggressive enemies of me.

All of my enemies are giving me hard time. I managed to grow Gundabad before the Dwarves took it so I could build the Orc equivalent of Town Hall and recruit a diplomat. I use this diplomat to force my enemies in ceasefires and trade treaties. But as you could expect, they last only a couple of turns at best before my enemies are advancing again to my villages, which have of course no walls and can be assaulted immediately. This means I have to keep two ”armies” keeping the advancing enemy armies (mainly FpoE and occasionally the High Elves) in check in Athilin, Coldfells and Hoarwell territories (North Arthedain, Ettenmoors and Mitheitel in regional terms). The problem is the slow army speed (I have no Dirt Roads – the settlements are only Villages with no walls) but on the other hand, I dare not think of situation where my enemies, too, are moving faster on roads...

The bigger problems are of course the pathetic economy and even more pathetic army quality. I don't have the economy to build better Barracks (or better infrastructure to that matter) etc. when I have to fill my ranks all the time. Even more annoying is that my troops are practically crap. I don't have to tell you about Snagas but a little surprise to me was how crap are Goblin Band (seems that they are almost worse than Snaga, no matter whether they are in normal or schiltrom formation) and Rhudaur Hillmen (same thing). In most battles they take 10-20 times more casualties than they inflict! Orc Fellers (I got one unit when I started the campaign) – same thing. Breeland Militia , Archer Militia and Merchants rape all. Even Mountain Trolls (I have had a couple) are ultimately killed by combination of Breeland Militia and charging Dúnedain Bodyguards (and flaming arrows by Archer Militia).

I have managed to ultimately win most of my battles because of my huge numbers but my armies take so terrible losses that these wins feel like Pyrrhic – I can't afford to train Snaga to fill the numbers or quickly enough. The size of the recruitment pools are nothing special which suprised me a bit, we are talking about the ever-reproducing Orcs after all. Most of my settlements have only one recruitment slot, and remember, I have no roads to enhance the reinforcement movement. Imladris could help me recruit better troops but I have not had the money to build Shrines there early on, so not enough culture there. Nevermind, I have no high expectations about the quality of Orc Fellers, Goblin Trackers, Orc Marauders etc. so I can't think they would be a quick solution to my problems in short term any way.

Any tips?

I read somewhere that the key with Orc armies is to line them in single line and flank and surround the enemy forces. This doesn't help me terribly much because I so few units in my ”armies” after fighting these countless armies of Free Peoples. If there is any hope avoiding such terrible casualties, I would like to hear. That would be a start. In couple of cases, after heavy defeats, I have had to resort in loading the game and using Autoresolve. This gives surprisingly good results (victories, no terrible casualties) but I don't want to do this. This game is not meant play with Autoresolves.

Thanks in advance!

[Guurt]

I am not playing the Gundabad orcs, but the Orcs of Misty Mountains... so I can't give you specific advice, but some involving orcs.

First of all, in dealing with dwarves all I use are Snaga Skirmishers and Snaga Archers, and maybe 1 unit of wargs. The dwarves lack speed and ranged units. So in general you can really wipe them out with archers and spear throwers... just run them around until you are out of arrows/spears and then either finish them off with hand to hand combat in the end, or just wait out the clock and live to fight another day. Dwarves are cake for Orcs of Misty mountains, but you are at a disadvantage since you don't have Snaga Skirmishers which are a fantastic unit. Seriously I love the snaga... cheap and effective.

For the elves you need warg. You can't have their troops running away to live another day. Wargs to capture the elves so that you can slit their throats in proper orc fashion.

Try to use your most evil feared generals... and anytime you have more than 50 captives execute them so you can build up that fear... fear generals plus wargs to get those enemy units to route.

You mentioned that 3.1 forces you to rush. I actually think it works better to go slower. In 2.1 it was a rush for territory, but in 3.1 you need to go slower. I would advise not taking towns until you get a mission to do so... just defend and build your economy. Do missions as quickly as you can so another will come available... missions are really essential for producing troops.

Also, starting a warg hut on turn 1 is a good idea... that way you have a chance to get warg units when you complete missions. I only have 1 warg hut built on turn 65 or so, but I have something like 10 to 15 warg units as I keep getting them for completing missions. Wargs are essential for dealing with elves, as I said earlier.

(never mind this as you already took Imladris, something I can't do yet... wargs not useful for that)... If you blockade the High Elves in Imladris then they can't get out to harass you... just put forces on both bridges, or a big stack out in front. That gives you some breathing area in that part of the map. The northern bridge has an awesome place to hide... so you can hide your troops until they cross the bridge and slaughter.

With regards to battle tactics. When dealing with slower armies such as Dwarves use your ranged units... harass and flee, don't engage until you know you can win. You don't have to engage at all... you can just harass, thin them out, run away and wait out the clock... guerrilla warfare tactics.

For elves and free people you can't do guerrilla warfare so flanking is the way to deal with them... use your wargs to distract their archers... get behind them and run forward, but don't attack... while your main force comes forward... put your cheap crappy units in front to take the arrows... they are just pin cushions... their job is to take the arrows not to kill the enemy... once your infantry forces engage the elves then try to flank them and rush them from behind with your wargs... do NOT engage with your wargs once charge is done!! Simply charge them in the rear and then run away again... the wargs are for causing fear and trying to get the enemy to flee... once the enemy flees send your wargs to mop them up and send your infantry to engage the rest of the enemy.

Also, with elven archers... it is often effective to just send your fastest unit to engage them in melee knowing that they archers will run away... but it keeps them from shooting.

Personally, I think the warg is most important unit. More useful than trolls since they don't crush your own forces in their charge.

You can build warg stables in mountain and plains regions... so this isn't a hard unit to get... when you have 3 or more units of wargs you can really use them to effectively cause massive slaughters. Just don't waste them. Don't let them take arrows. Protect them. All your other troops exist to protect the wargs. Sometimes I won't even engage my wargs until an enemy unit routes. It is not uncommon for a warg unit to take 0 losses but to have captured 50 to 100 enemy units.

Developing supply lines is the key for orcs... most of the enemy territory you take over will not produce units at a rapid speed. So don't bother trying. Put all your money into your mountain regions... and be thinking 2 to 5 turns ahead... your mountain regions need to be producing the troops that your generals will need in the future... so like a web they need to be sending out reinforcements.

Also, when deciding what territory to take... always take mountain regions first, grasslands second, and other stuff only if it is important for some other reason.

I just took over all of the Silvan elves territory, and the supply line issue is quite complicated... I wrote down how many turns it takes to get an infantry unit from town to town, so that I can know how many turns it takes to get troops from Moria to the Dale. It is important to know. The forests simply can not produce any units (other than giant spiders in Mirkwood area). Moria and Goblin Town have to produce most of the units. So spend some time thinking about your supply lines. This will make or break you. Most of the complaining about version 3.1 is due to people not understanding supply lines and not realizing that certain regions are essentially pointless for producing troops.

Anyway... just my thoughts... Hopefully something helpful.

[hahar]

I am not playing the Gundabad orcs, but the Orcs of Misty Mountains... so I can't give you specific advice, but some involving orcs.

First of all, in dealing with dwarves all I use are Snaga Skirmishers and Snaga Archers, and maybe 1 unit of wargs. The dwarves lack speed and ranged units. So in general you can really wipe them out with archers and spear throwers... just run them around until you are out of arrows/spears and then either finish them off with hand to hand combat in the end, or just wait out the clock and live to fight another day. Dwarves are cake for Orcs of Misty mountains, but you are at a disadvantage since you don't have Snaga Skirmishers which are a fantastic unit. Seriously I love the snaga... cheap and effective.

For the elves you need warg. You can't have their troops running away to live another day. Wargs to capture the elves so that you can slit their throats in proper orc fashion.

Try to use your most evil feared generals... and anytime you have more than 50 captives execute them so you can build up that fear... fear generals plus wargs to get those enemy units to route.

You mentioned that 3.1 forces you to rush. I actually think it works better to go slower. In 2.1 it was a rush for territory, but in 3.1 you need to go slower. I would advise not taking towns until you get a mission to do so... just defend and build your economy. Do missions as quickly as you can so another will come available... missions are really essential for producing troops.

Also, starting a warg hut on turn 1 is a good idea... that way you have a chance to get warg units when you complete missions. I only have 1 warg hut built on turn 65 or so, but I have something like 10 to 15 warg units as I keep getting them for completing missions. Wargs are essential for dealing with elves, as I said earlier.

(never mind this as you already took Imladris, something I can't do yet... wargs not useful for that)... If you blockade the High Elves in Imladris then they can't get out to harass you... just put forces on both bridges, or a big stack out in front. That gives you some breathing area in that part of the map. The northern bridge has an awesome place to hide... so you can hide your troops until they cross the bridge and slaughter.

With regards to battle tactics. When dealing with slower armies such as Dwarves use your ranged units... harass and flee, don't engage until you know you can win. You don't have to engage at all... you can just harass, thin them out, run away and wait out the clock... guerrilla warfare tactics.

For elves and free people you can't do guerrilla warfare so flanking is the way to deal with them... use your wargs to distract their archers... get behind them and run forward, but don't attack... while your main force comes forward... put your cheap crappy units in front to take the arrows... they are just pin cushions... their job is to take the arrows not to kill the enemy... once your infantry forces engage the elves then try to flank them and rush them from behind with your wargs... do NOT engage with your wargs once charge is done!! Simply charge them in the rear and then run away again... the wargs are for causing fear and trying to get the enemy to flee... once the enemy flees send your wargs to mop them up and send your infantry to engage the rest of the enemy.

Also, with elven archers... it is often effective to just send your fastest unit to engage them in melee knowing that they archers will run away... but it keeps them from shooting.

Personally, I think the warg is most important unit. More useful than trolls since they don't crush your own forces in their charge.

You can build warg stables in mountain and plains regions... so this isn't a hard unit to get... when you have 3 or more units of wargs you can really use them to effectively cause massive slaughters. Just don't waste them. Don't let them take arrows. Protect them. All your other troops exist to protect the wargs. Sometimes I won't even engage my wargs until an enemy unit routes. It is not uncommon for a warg unit to take 0 losses but to have captured 50 to 100 enemy units.

Developing supply lines is the key for orcs... most of the enemy territory you take over will not produce units at a rapid speed. So don't bother trying. Put all your money into your mountain regions... and be thinking 2 to 5 turns ahead... your mountain regions need to be producing the troops that your generals will need in the future... so like a web they need to be sending out reinforcements.

Also, when deciding what territory to take... always take mountain regions first, grasslands second, and other stuff only if it is important for some other reason.

I just took over all of the Silvan elves territory, and the supply line issue is quite complicated... I wrote down how many turns it takes to get an infantry unit from town to town, so that I can know how many turns it takes to get troops from Moria to the Dale. It is important to know. The forests simply can not produce any units (other than giant spiders in Mirkwood area). Moria and Goblin Town have to produce most of the units. So spend some time thinking about your supply lines. This will make or break you. Most of the complaining about version 3.1 is due to people not understanding supply lines and not realizing that certain regions are essentially pointless for producing troops.

Anyway... just my thoughts... Hopefully something helpful.

what do u mean the forest cant produce any units-u can produce everything if u have your culture-so shrine of melkor and so on and u can reproduce whatever u want!!
all other above is corect!

[Lazy]

what do u mean the forest cant produce any units-u can produce everything if u have your culture-so shrine of melkor and so on and u can reproduce whatever u want!!
all other above is corect!

forests have a hidden resource called "forest"...
mountains have "mountain"...

If as Elfes for example you try to trani units in mountain regions ( Moria for example ) you need like 20 turns for a "Forest Warden"... ( replenishment rate ).

If orcs need a "mountain" resource ( which is not there in forest regions ) is takes veryvery long for a unit to replenish... some units are even not producable if the needed resource is missing... that is what he ment ( i assume ) .

[braindead01]

forests have a hidden resource called "forest"...
mountains have "mountain"...

If as Elfes for example you try to trani units in mountain regions ( Moria for example ) you need like 20 turns for a "Forest Warden"... ( replenishment rate ).

If orcs need a "mountain" resource ( which is not there in forest regions ) is takes veryvery long for a unit to replenish... some units are even not producable if the needed resource is missing... that is what he ment ( i assume ) .

so if u are going to attack dale u will build up your army in moria,march 15turns and attack dale or u will recruit in elvenkings halls-3turns away but slower recruiting??

[Guurt]

Exactly what Lazy was saying.

Orcs can produce in forest regions, but it takes FOREVER. I believe it takes 13 turns to get 1 Snaga Skirmisher and 25 turns for a Warg unit. In my opinion that is not producing them at all... certainly not fast enough to make it work. I will NOT build any troop buildings in these regions... if one is there I am not destroying it, but I certainly wouldn't waste money on constructions. I probably made a massive blunder by spending 15,000 coins or more on building temples in Mirkwood... we will see... not sure if I can hold all of Mirkwood at this point.

When playing the Orcs of Misty Mountains essentially all of my troops have to come from Mordor, Goblin Town, and Dáin's Halls. Dáin's Halls only has 1 recruitment spot while Mordor and Goblin Town have 2 (once Goblin town expands which it does in the first 30-40 turns).

So, yes, if I am going to war with Dale I have to replenish my forces from Mordor, Goblin Town and Dáin's Halls.

I currently have all of Mirkwood and I have every single barracks on the map producing units... and I don't have enough units. I took too much forest region. It takes something like 17 to 20 turns before a town in Mirkwood can produce my first unit of Snaga Skirmishers... 35 turns or more for anything better than that.

The only units I can retrain are my giant spiders. Praise to Morgoth that I hired two units of giant spiders before I took over Mirkwood... those units have been invaluable in my conquest and attempt at holding all of Mirkwood with only 3 solid sources of orc units.

I may have made a mistake in taking all of Mirkwood before taking some of the mountain homes from the Dwarves. I MUST take Erebor from the Dwarves now or I will certainly lose Mirkwood to Dale as I can't replenish my troops fast enough.

Luckily I can call an invasion on Erebor and that will hurt both Dale and the Dwarves... plus I am close to Erebor and can take it for myself... I hope... I have a spy in Erebor and there are some tough Dragonslayers of Ered-Mithrin in there... so will be a hard fight.

[braindead01]

Exactly what Lazy was saying.

Orcs can produce in forest regions, but it takes FOREVER. I believe it takes 13 turns to get 1 Snaga Skirmisher and 25 turns for a Warg unit. In my opinion that is not producing them at all... certainly not fast enough to make it work. I will NOT build any troop buildings in these regions... if one is there I am not destroying it, but I certainly wouldn't waste money on constructions. I probably made a massive blunder by spending 15,000 coins or more on building temples in Mirkwood... we will see... not sure if I can hold all of Mirkwood at this point.

When playing the Orcs of Misty Mountains essentially all of my troops have to come from Mordor, Goblin Town, and Dáin's Halls. Dáin's Halls only has 1 recruitment spot while Mordor and Goblin Town have 2 (once Goblin town expands which it does in the first 30-40 turns).

So, yes, if I am going to war with Dale I have to replenish my forces from Mordor, Goblin Town and Dáin's Halls.

I currently have all of Mirkwood and I have every single barracks on the map producing units... and I don't have enough units. I took too much forest region. It takes something like 17 to 20 turns before a town in Mirkwood can produce my first unit of Snaga Skirmishers... 35 turns or more for anything better than that.

The only units I can retrain are my giant spiders. Praise to Morgoth that I hired two units of giant spiders before I took over Mirkwood... those units have been invaluable in my conquest and attempt at holding all of Mirkwood with only 3 solid sources of orc units.

I may have made a mistake in taking all of Mirkwood before taking some of the mountain homes from the Dwarves. I MUST take Erebor from the Dwarves now or I will certainly lose Mirkwood to Dale as I can't replenish my troops fast enough.

Luckily I can call an invasion on Erebor and that will hurt both Dale and the Dwarves... plus I am close to Erebor and can take it for myself... I hope... I have a spy in Erebor and there are some tough Dragonslayers of Ered-Mithrin in there... so will be a hard fight.

I will have to try this....damn again OOMM with their sh..ty units

[tjd123]

GL with that Guurt. Won't Erebor have a garrison script though?

[Guurt]

GL with that Guurt. Won't Erebor have a garrison script though?

Yes, I believe that it will. But I will be bringing 4 ballista to the party so I don't care how many troops they have they will all be burned alive.

Ballistas rule Middle Earth when it comes to taking/defending settlements and I have been building them steadily for a very long time... my big armies never have less than 3 ballista unless it is a pure warg stack which relies on mobility.

[Duke_Dutch]

hey Stonefield

I am playing with the orc's of gundabad right now and I have some of the same problems. ( turn 35)

First of al is the economie. fighting with snaga stalkers is easy in upkeep (96 if I am correct). But now in have to use fellers and halbadiers (to face the strong dwarves and eariador units) and they cost 200 upkeep.
Fighting the dwarves can only be done if you surround them with your massive numbers. ore used 2 waves of attack, first snage scum to make them tired and than fellers and halbadiers to clear them up. Dwarves doin't have many range or horses so you hit there line before lossing 20% of your men ( fighting elves). Doin't fight dwarves in city's. That ended for me always bloody. Fighting elves seems inpossible. only if you can ambush them and hit there line before they can fire you may win. Fightig eriador is a nother story. There footsoldiers ( except voor battleready dunedain) are a lot easier than dwarves, but there archers are good marksmen ( but realy bad in melee) and there horseman dominate the field. fighting in forrest ( old trick in my Isenguard campaign) may help a lot. you can counterattack there horsers before the can charge en fight there archers melee before the can fire to many arrows.

But I must say that Gundabad is quite hard to play ( VH,VH), recruitment en retraning is poor and you ecenomie is realy bad and can not be upgraded that much. In my own campagin I have -6000 in my purse, and I now make a last rush to Fornost. Hoping to kill many enemies so I can get randsom, and lose many of my troops so I doint have that terrible upkeep problem.

[k/t]

You can't ransom dead enemies.

[Duke_Dutch]

I know that. I actually mean taking prisoners. My main tactic is to surround en break them before they inflict to much damage on my army.

[Deedlit]

Mass a large force with three stacks of trolls. Make your whole army charge, and watch the enemy flee. Numbers scare the other army away

[k/t]

How do you use ballistas to take settlements? And how do you use them in field battles? I can't imagine a ballista unit getting more than 50 kills before the enemy closes. An archer unit can do that.

[Descendent of Kings]

Ya OoG are better, but still one of my least favorites. Which sucks cuz I love their location on the map. And idk about you guys, but in the description it says that OoG were more organized and such than OotMM, but yet OotMM seem to be better armoured and organized (yes I'm aware they looted dwarf armour). To me better organized tells me they field a more balanced roster...more/better heavy infantry, better archers, etc. Where the OotMM would be a skirmishing/horde type. Don't get me wrong I enjoy OotMM roster with the heavy goblin units which I think make sense and are great, I just think OoG lack that last tier of elite units aside from snow trolls. Just don't think orc marauders qualify as an elite unit.

[Guurt]

How do you use ballistas to take settlements? And how do you use them in field battles? I can't imagine a ballista unit getting more than 50 kills before the enemy closes. An archer unit can do that.

Ballista are pretty accurate against any non-moving target. They are crud against moving targets unless the target is coming directly at the ballista and even then they are only so-so.

The one thing to know about ballista is if they miss they generally go short rather than long. So if there are several enemy units jammed up against each other then target the one farthest away and if the ballista misses it hits the closer unit. Sometime I even target the farther unit when I actually want to hit the closer unit (especially true if the closer unit is mounted on horses as they are higher up and the ballista arrows will often smash the cavalry rider's heads on their way to their actual targets). One ballista shot can sometimes kill 6 to 10 units if they are all clustered together in a tight mass.

Ballista are fantastic in siege as there are huge traffic jams, and units can't spread out they are often bunched. You just target an enemy unit that is stuck in the traffic jam. The tighter the traffic jam the more damage the ballista will do. Also, the ballista lets you attack without siege equipment and it prevents archers from manning the walls... you can use the ballista to keep their archers at distance... so even if they aren't killing their units they are helping to keep the damage their archers are doing to a minimum.

Field battles aren't much different. When your infantry hits their infantry you now have a target that isn't moving. You fire over the backs of your units into their stationary infantry or into the archers. If you can get an angle where your infantry approach from the side so that your ballista can fire straight into the enemy then even better. The key is to just keep some distance between the line of battle and where your ballista are... you don't want the battle to take place where your ballista are located... also if you have slow moving units you can keep them near your ballista to bait enemy units to charge... bringing their units to your slow moving units.

If there is a bridge involved then ballista is amazing. Just create traffic jam on bridge and watch the pyre of burning bodies. The key is having the right angle to hit the enemy units without burning your own units.

Also, ballista plus some hidden troops works nicely. Put some troops in a woods and use the ballista to herd the enemy towards your hidden troops.

Ballista burn your enemies which causes massive fear. So if hit an enemy unit that is wavering with a burning ballista arrow then they will often flee.

[k/t]

Do ballistas still do damage to walls in 3.0? In RR/RC, ballistas do 0 to walls.

[Seleukos_I.]

Do ballistas still do damage to walls in 3.0? In RR/RC, ballistas do 0 to walls.

At least they damage the door and the towers. IIRC walls too.

[lolIsuck]

They do, they're just less effective on walls then catapults