God and the Existance of Evil

[Perikles]

The God of Classical Theism is defined as having all 3 of these qualities:

• All-Knowing
• All-Loving
• All-Powerful

These 3 qualities conflict with each other when the concept of evil is brought into the equation. If God is all-knowing and all-powerful, he has the knowledge and power to deal with the evil in the world, but must not care about it and is therefore not all-loving.
Also if God is all-knowing and all-loving he knows and cares about the evil in thw orld, but must not have the power to deal with it.
But then if God is all-loving and all-powerful he has the power and will to deal with the evil but just not the knowledge of it.

This has puzzled many people over the centuries and is dealt with in different ways by different religions. Muslims beleive that Allah put's evil in the world to challenge them, if they overcome these challenges in life they are fit for heaven.
How do other religions deal with this? Do you think it can be dealt with?

[Zenith Darksea]

Not again...

I'll direct you to the often repeated (because people keep making this inane argument) rebuttal that to deny humans the freewill to choose between good and evil is in itself one of the greatest evils there is.

Furthermore, the evils that we suffer in this life are of no significance in the long run, when the spiritual rewards, punishments etc. are taken into consideration.

And finally, it's pointless to try to work out the pattern of God's thinking because, if He is perfectly rational, and we are not (for we are human), then it would be more surprising if we could understand everything He thinks. Because if we could, then we would either be on the level of gods, or God would be on the level of men. But we are not, and He is not. So there will be things that we won't be able to figure out.

[Tom Paine]

I'll direct you to the often repeated (because people keep making this inane argument) rebuttal that to deny humans the freewill to choose between good and evil is in itself one of the greatest evils there is.

Only under a system of morality of mankind and not deityhood; God tries to limit free will with laws and rules, which are themselve limits on ones' self-determination and thus free will. You haven't rebutted the argument from anything beyond a human point of view. And to introduce a new factor into the equation... natural evil?

Furthermore, the evils that we suffer in this life are of no significance in the long run, when the spiritual rewards, punishments etc. are taken into consideration.

Their significance is irrelevant; they are still, notice, evils, whether short-term or long term; and whether great or little. Its like saying if I knife you to get you into paradise its not evil.

And finally, it's pointless to try to work out the pattern of God's thinking because, if He is perfectly rational, and we are not (for we are human), then it would be more surprising if we could understand everything He thinks. Because if we could, then we would either be on the level of gods, or God would be on the level of men. But we are not, and He is not. So there will be things that we won't be able to figure out.

Again irrelevant; God's thinking does not alter the question of evil because he opbviously allows it to continue and given his tenets and received wisdom he believes it is evil.

[God]

If you don't believe in God, you go to hell.

Does God make any effort to show us that he exists? No.

Don't say 'It's free will - we have to choose what to believe' because by not showing us any proof at all that he exists he's making us believe that he doesn't exist.

It's like blinding someone, and then telling them that they will go to hell if they walk the wrong direction.

[God]

If you don't believe in God, you go to hell.

Does God make any effort to show us that he exists? No.

Don't say 'It's free will - we have to choose what to believe' because by not showing us any proof at all that he exists he's making us believe that he doesn't exist.

It's like blinding someone, and then telling them that they will go to hell if they walk the wrong direction.

Just a bit to add to my post:

As well as telling the blind man that if he chooses the wrong path they will go to hell, he also nudges the blind man in the wrong direction.

[shenmueguru]

Does God make any effort to show us that he exists? No.

He did for me...Everyone who says this turns a deaf ear and eye to God. Scripture states God clearly makes himself known, no man has excuse. For me they are obvious; to one with a hard heart they are not as obvious. Just because you say He doesn't make His presence shown doesn't mean that he ignores us.

Another theory on the problem of evil for the Theist side is that God does not rule the kingdom of Earth right now. He's just sitting back watching us and waiting for the seals to be broken, the trumpets to start blaring, and the horseman to start their ride.

This is a very common and widely acknowledged belief, that Satan rules the earth as of now. If not, there would be no point in Jesus returning with the new earth and heaven. That is why every christian is "born again," i.e. we were of Satan before we believed in Christ, afterwards we are metaphorically born again as christians.-

[Perikles]

God has spoke, bow down before him!

And on a more serious note, does anyone know Christians' ways of dealing with this 'problem'? I can't remember...

[Tom Paine]

ZD summed it up, in all essence; its not a problem because there is no problem... however its an argument I've taken apart. The other is that we must suffer in this life to deserve the reward in the next... and that we must choose to do good because we want to do good not because we have to to be rewarded. The flaw in the first is a basic, why? The flaw in the second is that there is also natural evil which God created in building the laws of physics et al, and that God has all-but abandoned us and thus leaves us wandering blind to choose the right path in his book without really clearly telling us what it is, as summed up by, um, by God above.

[Zenith Darksea]

Wow, tough crowd.

Firstly on Squeakus' point, I must elaborate. This again is a total non-argument - physical free will has no bearing on the question of a moral choice. I can choose whether or not I want to do something; I may not be in a position to do it, but I can still make a mental decision as to whether or not it is a good thing. Physical ability is a red herring in this debate.

Natural Evil - I believe the explanation for this lies in Original Sin. Natural evil comes as a consequence of Adam's fall. But I'll have a chat with my priest about this before I accidentally commit myself to a heresy or something like that. Stay tuned.

No, I never said that evil acts weren't evil. I just said that evil pales into insignificance. If we are 'saved', then we are in a state in which evil holds no problems for us.

Actually, it's not irrelevant at all. Or at least not as irrelevant as your bizarre argument that physical ability somehow infringes on our ability to make moral decision in our minds. The point I'm making is that there may be a very good and succinct answer to the whole evil situation, but that we can't comprehend it.

God does make an effort to show us that He exists through the workings of the Holy Spirit - there are billions of people throughout the world who will testify to that. You might not choose to believe them though, so there's also the whole thing about sending His Son into the world to die and be resurrected, triumphing over death. The existence of the Orthodox Church is pretty good testimony to that.

[Tom Paine]

Firstly on Squeakus' point, I must elaborate. This again is a total non-argument - physical free will has no bearing on the question of a moral choice. I can choose whether or not I want to do something; I may not be in a position to do it, but I can still make a mental decision as to whether or not it is a good thing. Physical ability is a red herring in this debate.

I disagree. The moral decision is limited by ability; we are not sent to hell on thoughts but on deeds and thus it is a matter of purely physical free will.... you are dangling the red herring here.

Natural Evil - I believe the explanation for this lies in Original Sin. Natural evil comes as a consequence of Adam's fall. But I'll have a chat with my priest about this before I accidentally commit myself to a heresy or something like that. Stay tuned.

Good idea. However that argument is assuming a Biblical literaryness that is commonly accepted as false; and original sin itself is not universally accepted as a doctrine any more.

No, I never said that evil acts weren't evil. I just said that evil pales into insignificance. If we are 'saved', then we are in a state in which evil holds no problems for us.

In that case acts pale into insignificance and do not matter.

Actually, it's not irrelevant at all. Or at least not as irrelevant as your bizarre argument that physical ability somehow infringes on our ability to make moral decision in our minds. The point I'm making is that there may be a very good and succinct answer to the whole evil situation, but that we can't comprehend it.

We have knowledge of good and evil (thanks to the fall of Adam earlier referenced by you) and thus should be able to comprehend it; we sought to be as gods and took moral knowledge as gods.

God does make an effort to show us that He exists through the workings of the Holy Spirit - there are billions of people throughout the world who will testify to that. You might not choose to believe them though, so there's also the whole thing about sending His Son into the world to die and be resurrected, triumphing over death. The existence of the Orthodox Church is pretty good testimony to that.

So basically he does it by talking to a few people around the globe and 2,000-odd years ago sending his son to die? yet we have no evidence for the latter until about 50 years after his death at the time of writing of the first gospel... god wasn't going out of his way to make things seem real was he? And the second, well, some people think they are God, some people think they can hear devils, do they prove anything?

[Sidmen]

God is not all good, nobody says that, and you can love someone even if you don't help them with the evils of the world. God was never said to be all caring.

God knows you are in trouble, and loves you all the same. However he does not do anything about this even though he can. Perhaps god finds it more interesting to see people's reactions.

[Zenith Darksea]

Erm, perhaps we should wait for a less heretical reply

[Sidmen]

Seriously, Being all loving doesn't mean that he is only good, people simply assume it and people are flawed..

[Denny Crane!]

The God of Classical Theism is defined as having all 3 of these qualities:

• All-Knowing
• All-Loving
• All-Powerful

Really says who? Be more specific the Abrahamic God is depicted as this. Depicted by humans, primitive humans at that who may or may not have had contact with God and may or may not have understood things said to them. Even if they did have contact with them every message is depicted with bias and open to interpretation.

Does anyone else think the bible is not a good way to try and characterise God?

Let us say he may be all powerful it is an easy assumption if God created the universe then it suggests it.

All loving. Let us examine the nature of the world and its inherent precepts. Nature and evolution are characteristics that have created us and rule our lives. We alive in a world filled with death, which is a natural progression for life. The world on its most basic levels has predators which act in a way we may consider cruel and unusual.

How can evil exist? First we must define evil, understand that it is a concept created by us not God. Wether it be natural evil (earthquakes, cancer or other cruel and unusual forms of natural death) or premeditated evil (the deliberate killing) both were around long before humans and should we ever cease to be will continue long after we cease to be. So what we characterise as evil is just a part of nature. Would we have a God make a toothless lion? Of course not nature would cease to function as we know it.

He may or may not be above concepts such as morality or he may have created the universe to function in such a way for us function in a certain way in it. Overcoming suffering and pain, rising above the base instincts that drive us (predatory sexual) are the things which bring us closer to God. Our suffering may be here for a reason and people saying how can God let these things happen to us if he loves is reminiscent me of a child throwing a tantrum about doing his homework or wanting a sweetie.

These 3 qualities conflict with each other when the concept of evil is brought into the equation. If God is all-knowing and all-powerful, he has the knowledge and power to deal with the evil in the world, but must not care about it and is therefore not all-loving.
Also if God is all-knowing and all-loving he knows and cares about the evil in thw orld, but must not have the power to deal with it.
But then if God is all-loving and all-powerful he has the power and will to deal with the evil but just not the knowledge of it.

This has puzzled many people over the centuries and is dealt with in different ways by different religions. Muslims beleive that Allah put's evil in the world to challenge them, if they overcome these challenges in life they are fit for heaven.
How do other religions deal with this? Do you think it can be dealt with?

The first noble truth of buddhism is that life is suffering. Unlike the other religions buddhism is realistic, they don't focus on the questions of Gods nature and they take a realistic look at the world but it is not pessimistic. It is not really a valid thing to bring to the arguement though as it is not relevant to the topic. As a rule the focus is not to pass judgement on the world, that is a concept rooted in the west (particularly in those indoctrinated or focused on christianity). The christian God in Genesis does the same thing, he asks himself is it gqood or is it bad? People ever since have been taking one side or the other.

The point of the first noble truth is to identify suffering, comprehend it and attain release from it. As a religion it does not waste time trying to debate things which are really unanswerable (though not without use intellectually I guess I love the semantics of it) but on attaining a state of mind where you can understand the world and yourself and maybe a measure of happiness.


Peter

[Marcus Scaurus]

Evil isn't always 'evil'. Imagine you're living in prehistorical Africa, 10000 BC, with about twenty familymembers. An unknown tribe from a distant region comes to your valley because there aren't enough animals to hunt in their homelands. There are plenty of animals in your valley, but it's better to hate the strangers than to welcome them: who know's what their intentions are? Racism might be an evil thing, it sure worked/works in 'primitive' societies. Same goes with killing... killing your brother isn't a good thing, because he's of your own blood, but it's good to kill an enemy or to kill an animal to eat it.

[Zenith Darksea]

you are dangling the red herring here.

No, I'm not. We are partially judged on our thoughts, as it happens. You may have noticed, for instance, that belief in God and Christ is a prerequisite for salvation. That's a perfect example of a free choice that is made purely mentally. If I believe that it is right to commit genocide, even if I don't do it, that's still going to count against me in the long run.

In that case acts pale into insignificance and do not matter.

No, that's not quite what I'm saying. You've got to get the right perspective - the act will pale into insignificance for the person who is on the receiving end, but it's very significant for the person who actually committed it, as (despite what Evangelicals say*) our acts do count for/against us.

We have knowledge of good and evil (thanks to the fall of Adam earlier referenced by you) and thus should be able to comprehend it; we sought to be as gods and took moral knowledge as gods.

Obviously it's not complete knowledge, because we're having this debate in the first place. What are you saying? That we are equivalent to gods?

Well, to be fair, it's not just a 'few' people. Christianity is the largest religion on Earth (having rather more adherents than atheism, for whatever that matters), and is still growing. Oh well, I suppose I can only quote Christ himself, "It is an evil generation that asks for signs and miracles; however none shall be given except the sign of Jonah." God did go pretty far in making things clear, when you consider the astonishing speed with which Christianity supplanted virtually every other religion in the Roman and Near-Eastern world, not to mention the conversion of the Slavs (the biggest mass conversion in history). Some people do think these, but they are in a vast minority.

* I make this distinction because I am always presenting Eastern Orthodox theology in these arguments; no doubt many of the Western offshoots of Catholicism (and Catholicism itself) have their own ideas on these matters. But, seeing as we were the ones who wrote Christian theology down, we're the best people to talk to!

[Tom Paine]

No, I'm not. We are partially judged on our thoughts, as it happens. You may have noticed, for instance, that belief in God and Christ is a prerequisite for salvation. That's a perfect example of a free choice that is made purely mentally. If I believe that it is right to commit genocide, even if I don't do it, that's still going to count against me in the long run.

That goes against what I've heard from most others, so I'll let it pass, beyond the fact that if thought is a crime we cannot achieve salvation as we cannot control our thoughts....

No, that's not quite what I'm saying. You've got to get the right perspective - the act will pale into insignificance for the person who is on the receiving end, but it's very significant for the person who actually committed it, as (despite what Evangelicals say*) our acts do count for/against us.

But its equally insignificant talking eternally. God sees the fall of every sparrow, each of which is insignificant; evil done to one is more significant than that done by one, from one's own perspective, because one cannot thoughtlessly have evil enacted against one.

Obviously it's not complete knowledge, because we're having this debate in the first place. What are you saying? That we are equivalent to gods?

That's what they ate the fruit for. I'm not saying anything like that though, as an atheist, just that its what your doctrine says.

Well, to be fair, it's not just a 'few' people. Christianity is the largest religion on Earth (having rather more adherents than atheism, for whatever that matters), and is still growing. Oh well, I suppose I can only quote Christ himself, "It is an evil generation that asks for signs and miracles; however none shall be given except the sign of Jonah." God did go pretty far in making things clear, when you consider the astonishing speed with which Christianity supplanted virtually every other religion in the Roman and Near-Eastern world, not to mention the conversion of the Slavs (the biggest mass conversion in history). Some people do think these, but they are in a vast minority.

Size is irrelevant, and I'd direct you to Dostoevsky's Grand Inquisitor within the Brothers Karamazov for the argument on miracles. And of course it took root because the cults were rich people looking for a thrill and some of them were close to the Emperors and so...

* I make this distinction because I am always presenting Eastern Orthodox theology in these arguments; no doubt many of the Western offshoots of Catholicism (and Catholicism itself) have their own ideas on these matters. But, seeing as we were the ones who wrote Christian theology down, we're the best people to talk to!

You wrote it down after the fact though

Red Baron, Christian theology doesn't allow for moral relativism or equivalency, only an absolute morality.

[GoodOne19]

God is deffinetly not all loving, look at the state the world is in.
If he really was all -loving, he would atleast show himself, but he doesnt do anything at all.
God is just a tool, anyone can tell me otherwise, but wont change my mind.

God is a tool, a idea made by man! religion has been abused, used for control, thats it.
Its still used as an excuse, for war and control, christians, muslims, catholics (bwah ppff)

[Denny Crane!]

God is deffinetly not all loving, look at the state the world is in.
If he really was all -loving, he would atleast show himself, but he doesnt do anything at all.
God is just a tool, anyone can tell me otherwise, but wont change my mind.

God is a tool, a idea made by man! religion has been abused, used for control, thats it.
Its still used as an excuse, for war and control, christians, muslims, catholics (bwah ppff)

Buddhism?

Peter

[Tom Paine]

Buddhism is a godless religion and thus does not enter the equation of a loving god irreconcileable with extant evils.