Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 26

Thread: Will the British Government become dictators

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Will the British Government become dictators

    This is a discussion point raised by another member and I thought I would give it some body for their benefit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tariq Ali
    In the face of terror attacks Anglo-Saxon politicians mouth the same rhetoric. One sentence in particular--shrouded in layers of untruth--is constantly repeated: 'We shall not permit these attacks to change our way of life.' It is a multi-purpose mantra. The first aim is to convince the public that the terrorists are crazed Muslims who are bombing modernity/democracy/freedom/ 'our values', etc.

    This is the first lie. The terror attacks, however misguided and criminal, are a result of the Western military presence in the Arab world. If all the foreign troops and bases were withdrawn, the attacks would cease. This is essentially a post-First Gulf war syndrome.

    Israel/Palestine is another issue, but that has been simmering for fifty years and was not the main reason for the bombings in New York, Madrid and London. It has now been added to the repertoire, but the struggle to force Israel back to the 1967 frontiers is one waged by the Palestinians themselves. They have received little support from elsewhere.

    The sentence itself is a falsehood, because the attacks have changed 'our way of life'. The Patriot Act in the United States and the measures being proposed by Tony Blair in Britain demonstrate this quite clearly. What is being proposed in Britain is the indefinite suspension of habeas corpus. Worried by the recent judicial activism with senior Judges in Britain expressing a real concern at the growing attack on civil liberties, Tony Blair warned them in public that he would brook no dissent:

    "Should legal obstacles arise, we will legislate further, including, if necessary amending the Human Rights Act, in respect of the interpretation of the ECHR. In any event, we will consult on legislating specifically for a non-suspensive appeal process in respect of deportations.
    One other point on deportations. Once the new grounds take effect, there will be a list drawn up of specific extremist websites, bookshops, centres, networks and particular organisations of concern. Active engagement with any of these will be a trigger for the home secretary to consider the deportation of any foreign national. As has been stated already, there will be new anti-terrorism legislation in the autumn. This will include an offence of condoning or glorifying terrorism. The sort of remarks made in recent days should be covered by such laws. But this will also be applied to justifying or glorifying terrorism anywhere, not just in the UK."

    Will the British Parliament accept this view and legislate in favour of the new authoritarianism? Probably. It is a parliament dominated by cons and neo-cons. If Blair is a second-rate politician with a third-rate mind, his Conservative opponent, Michael Howard is a third-rate politician with a second-rate mind. He has both accused Blair of inconsistencies and demanded even tougher measures. In reality he is Blair's echo-chamber.

    In a recent article in the Daily Telegraph, Howard denounced the law lords'(Britain's equivalent of the Supreme Court) decision last year. The judges had stated that the indefinite detention without trial of foreign terror suspects under the 2001 Anti-Terrorism Act contravened the Human Rights Act, and referred to the difficulties the latter act creates for deporting extremists to countries where they may face persecution or torture. Wrote Howard:

    "Parliament must be supreme. Aggressive judicial activism will not only undermine the public's confidence in the impartiality of our judiciary. It could also put our security at risk - and with it the freedoms the judges seek to defend. That would be a price we cannot be expected to pay."

    Here again we note a refusal to accept what really puts 'security at risk'. These views of the neo-con Blairites and the old Conservatives are an indication that Britain is undergoing a crisis of representation. The corrupt first-past-the-post electoral system has now become a serious threat to democratic functioning in Britain. Blair was re-elected with only 35 per cent of the popular vote, and barely a fifth of the overall electorate-the lowest percentage secured by any governing party in recent European history. A majority of the population opposed the war in Iraq; a majority of the population favors withdrawing British troops; 66 percent believe that the attacks on London were the result of Blair's decision to send troops to Iraq.

    This is also the view of important sections of the Establishment, including MI5, the intelligence agency whose web-site makes the link of Iraq to the terror attacks. Many measures proposed were tried during the years of the Irish 'troubles'. Special courts sanctioned imprisonment without trial, etc. But judges were more reliable in those days. That is why Blair is proposing that judges who try Muslim suspects should themselves be security-vetted. In other words files will be opened to determine the reliability of judges.


    As to my opinion on this matter I have to state I categorically disagree. Case in point, today the judiciary defied Blair by declaring that six people who hijacked a plane in Afghanistan could not be deported. In an appeal to popular opinion Blair denounced the judge, a move likely to further antagonise and alienate the judiciary. If such human rights are still being upheld in such controversial cases then I am confident that our system works even if the cases are prejudiced in public opinion.

    The Lords is an effective counter to parliment and reform of the royal perogative (due soon, hopefully it will pass ) will remove the executive powers enjoyed by the PM to take us to war without consultation and many other ways the system can be abused.

    One of the points raised in the quote was the first past the post system. I do support reform of the electoral system. First past the post is not representative, I believe it is significantly responsible for voter apathy as the population does not feel represented and we have a two party system which I do not believe is the most effective form of government (what are the lib dems again?). I do accept that this would be a legislative and beauracratic nightmare.#

    Peter

  2. #2
    Tostig's Avatar -
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    The Shire, UK.
    Posts
    1,340

    Default Re: Will the British Government become dictators

    The Lord's ability to pose a major defense against constitutional change will soon be almost utterly removed thanks to the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 unfortunately. However even at present the House of Lords cannot oppose a bill if it was in the government's manifesto, which is worrying.

    Add into that the fact that we are a democracy. History has shown us, for instance when Churchill came to power, that Parliament are quite happy to vote through "unconstitutional" bills if they believe it to be in the country's/their best interest.

    Unlike the vast majority of people I see no significant advantage in a representative democracy. The problem with elected politicians is that the thing which motivates them most of the time is the desire to be re-elected no matter what.

    Blocking something like deportation of six people is one thing, however I seriously don't see any way in which a government with control of the military (and possibly police) could be opposed from inside the nation.

    Yes, if it had enough support.
    Garbarsardar has been a dapper chap.

  3. #3
    Sidmen's Avatar Mangod of Earth
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    15,874

    Default Re: Will the British Government become dictators

    If britian's government does become a dictatorship, all you need to do is terrorize america and we'll remove the military and police problem...
    "For the humble doily is indeed the gateway to ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER!"

    ~Sidmen, Member of the House of Wilpuri, Patronized by pannonian

  4. #4

    Default Re: Will the British Government become dictators

    This is kinda stupid but what does it meant to categorically accept or reject?
    PelicanJournal -> pelicanjournal.org.
    Contact me at pelicanjournal@gmail.com if you want to write articles for it.

  5. #5
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: Will the British Government become dictators

    Emphatically, positively, directly without exception without doubt.

    Peter

  6. #6
    hunter260859's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    march. cambridgeshire
    Posts
    1,334

    Default Re: Will the British Government become dictators

    you stole my bloody topic lol but i forgive you and just to not go off topic

    I do belive that the goverment will become a dictartorship the british public is being told what to do time and time over again your not aloud to smoke in pubs fair enough but you dont ban them fully in pubs and soon my dad said that he would not be allowed to smoke in his van and all this stuff negative againsnt smokers i mean sure smoking is bad but it actualy pays for the NHS.

  7. #7
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: Will the British Government become dictators

    Quote Originally Posted by hunter260859
    you stole my bloody topic lol but i forgive you and just to not go off topic

    I do belive that the goverment will become a dictartorship the british public is being told what to do time and time over again your not aloud to smoke in pubs fair enough but you dont ban them fully in pubs and soon my dad said that he would not be allowed to smoke in his van and all this stuff negative againsnt smokers i mean sure smoking is bad but it actualy pays for the NHS.
    The government has a history of stepping in when the population is endangering itself. Go google the history of gin and how the government had to control that as well in the 18th century effectively removing it from the working classes by making it so expensive.

    We survived that and we will survive this.

    Peter

  8. #8
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Silver Spring, Maryland (inside the Beltway)
    Posts
    33,698

    Default Re: Will the British Government become dictators

    Quote Originally Posted by hunter260859
    you stole my bloody topic lol but i forgive you and just to not go off topic

    I do belive that the goverment will become a dictartorship the british public is being told what to do time and time over again your not aloud to smoke in pubs fair enough but you dont ban them fully in pubs and soon my dad said that he would not be allowed to smoke in his van and all this stuff negative againsnt smokers i mean sure smoking is bad but it actualy pays for the NHS.
    And lung cancer treatment takes it straight back out again... its tit for tat...

    Anyways, its headed that way not based on nannystatism; rather on the removal gradually of various rights and legal priveledges of the ordinary Briton, for no real purpose beyond ease of control; and also legislative absolute control by ministers as laid out in the original L&RR Bill, though it has since been gutted; of course, it may not work, if we and the opposition parties are vigilant and stop it, as they seem to be waking up and doing.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Will the British Government become dictators

    Airstrip-one is airstrip-one as long as blair-brainism is all-highest. The thread-starter has it wrong. The 'british government' became a (sophisticated) form of dictatorship May 1997.
    The question is: how long will this dementented form of dictatorship last?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Will the British Government become dictators

    wqhat has the constituinal reform act 2005 got to do with the power of the lords???

    its totally focused on the judicary.
    it seperates the powers of the Lord Chancellor, removing his legislative and judicial role, making him just another minister of the government in the lords (Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs in fact)
    it also removes the 12 law lords from the house and creates a new Supreme Court of the United Kingdom for them, to be headed by the current Senior Lord of Appeal in ordinary (Lord Bingham of Cornhill) and creates an independant appointments commission for the engliah judiciary, now to be directed headed by the Lord Chief Justice (Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers)


    i don't get the Habeus Corpus reference either.
    Habeus Corpus is a writ a judge issues to a lower court of sentencing body on appeal from either defence or prosecution, summoning the case to his court. i.e. if you lose your case in the crown court, you appeal to the Court of Appeal, and if they decide to hear your appeal, they issue a writ of habeus corpus (Lit, latin, Let us have the body). this particular writ is used only when a defendant or an agent questions the legality of his imprisonment (not any other kind of appeal). any imprisonment thats made according to an act of law is legal, because parliament is sovereign. if parliament pass the Imprison Burglers Act 2006 stating that all first time burglars will be locked up for a minimum of 10 years, anyone sentenced cannot ask for a Habeus Corpus appeal.

    the one modern exception is the human rights act, but this is a technicality, since a Uk court cannot strike down legislation... because again, parliament is sovereign.
    however, non of the judicial part has yet to be commenced, and changes to the role of the LC are only starting to progress.

  11. #11
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Silver Spring, Maryland (inside the Beltway)
    Posts
    33,698

    Default Re: Will the British Government become dictators

    How was Blair's government different to Major's or Thatcher's? All had the majority in Parliament and could thus push through any bill that wouldn't get too many rebels...

  12. #12

    Default Re: Will the British Government become dictators

    Quote Originally Posted by Squeakus Maximus
    How was Blair's government different to Major's or Thatcher's? All had the majority in Parliament and could thus push through any bill that wouldn't get too many rebels...
    Blair has had major back bench revolts, Thatcher was ousted by her own party and Major couldn't push through a paper bag.

  13. #13
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Silver Spring, Maryland (inside the Beltway)
    Posts
    33,698

    Default Re: Will the British Government become dictators

    Except Major had no need to, riding through on Thatcher's popularity; and Blair looks to be going to be pushed the Thatcher way...

  14. #14

    Default Re: Will the British Government become dictators

    Quote Originally Posted by Squeakus Maximus
    Except Major had no need to, riding through on Thatcher's popularity; and Blair looks to be going to be pushed the Thatcher way...
    Thatcher got ousted by her own party, lost the faith of the electorate and you're talking about riding through on Thatcher's popularity. One of these things does not belong.

  15. #15
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Silver Spring, Maryland (inside the Beltway)
    Posts
    33,698

    Default Re: Will the British Government become dictators

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    Thatcher got ousted by her own party, lost the faith of the electorate and you're talking about riding through on Thatcher's popularity. One of these things does not belong.
    She got elected three times, she ruled for 11 years before being ousted, and she was followed by a renewal of the party which she was leader of being elected.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Will the British Government become dictators

    Quote Originally Posted by Squeakus Maximus
    She got elected three times, she ruled for 11 years before being ousted, and she was followed by a renewal of the party which she was leader of being elected.
    All very good. But saying that John Major rode her popularity after she had lost it all hurts my fragile brain.

  17. #17
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Silver Spring, Maryland (inside the Beltway)
    Posts
    33,698

    Default Re: Will the British Government become dictators

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    All very good. But saying that John Major rode her popularity after she had lost it all hurts my fragile brain.
    I never said he did, I just pointed out the fact she can't have lost all her popularity.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Will the British Government become dictators

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    Thatcher got ousted by her own party, lost the faith of the electorate and you're talking about riding through on Thatcher's popularity. One of these things does not belong.
    It's a very different thing to be ousted by your own party and to lose the faith of the electorate. Without an election being called, it would be very hard to discern exactly how much faith the electorate would indeed have. We do know Maggie won 3 majority elections. We also know John Major lost elections.


    In Patronicum sub Siblesz

  19. #19
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Silver Spring, Maryland (inside the Beltway)
    Posts
    33,698

    Default Re: Will the British Government become dictators

    And the safety of their position. If they think they are in danger of losing pay and priveledges for various jobs, they'll fight all the way.

  20. #20
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: Will the British Government become dictators

    Off topic much?

    To try and take it back, SM the L+LR bill was effectively gutted as you said so it is not really a sound arguement for saying that the UK could become an authoritarian state. So what is your opinion on the topic yes or no?

    Peter

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •