NSA looking for patterns in chaos. Will the chaos respond?

[Garbarsardar]

Well, do you want to help preventing terrorist attacks? Don't worry, you are already doing it. Apparently the NSA requested the call logs made between all telephones mobile or not in the US of A to discover patterns indicating terrorist activity. Remember this time like you called Pizza hut three consecutive times? Looks like a pattern to me Mister...Do you call your girlfriend/mother/family/mate at the same time evry day? Pattern. I'm all for the rehabilitation of paranoid psychopaths but this time, the administration really decided put the right people on the job...

WASHINGTON -- The government is secretly collecting records of ordinary Americans' phone calls in an effort to build a database of every call made within the country, it was reported Thursday.

AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth telephone companies began turning over records of tens of millions of their customers' phone calls to the National Security Agency program shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, said USA Today, citing anonymous sources it said had direct knowledge of the arrangement.

The program does not involve listening to or taping the calls. Instead it documents who talks to whom in personal and business calls, whether local or long distance, by tracking which numbers are called, the newspaper said.

The NSA and the Office of National Intelligence Director did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

NSA is the same spy agency that conducts the controversial domestic eavesdropping program that has been acknowledged by President Bush. The president said last year that he authorized the NSA to listen, without warrants, to international phone calls involving Americans suspected of terrorist links.

The report came as the former NSA director, Gen. Michael Hayden - Bush's choice to take over leadership of the CIA - was set to visit lawmakers on Capitol Hill Thursday. Hayden already faced criticism because of the NSA's secret domestic eavesdropping program. As head of the NSA from March 1999 to April 2005, Hayden also would have overseen the call-tracking program.

The NSA wants the database of domestic call records to look for any patterns that might suggest terrorist activity, USA Today said.

[mike^_^]

things have changed after 9/11, we gotta get tough. you don't want the terrorists to win do you? we got hit man

A Virginia training manual used to help state employees recognize terrorists lists anti-government and property rights activists as terrorists and includes binoculars, video cameras, pads and notebooks in a compendium of terrorist tools.

The manual, discovered by the Virginia News Source, is keen to emphasize that terrorists are not only Middle Eastern in scope and the main focus is afforded to domestic terrorism.

Included with Hamas, Al-Qaeda and Islamic Jihad, the following groups are identified as terrorist organizations.

In any anti-government and militia movements
Are property-rights activists
Are in any racist, separatist and hate groups
Are an environmental and animal rights activist
Are a religious extremist
Are in a street gang



Presumably, tourists, journalists, hikers, bird-watchers, scuba divers, artists, painters, and anyone who takes a photograph is also now a terrorists according to the official list of terrorist paraphernalia provided.

- sketch pads or notebooks
- maps or charts
- still or video camera
- hand held tape recorder
- binoculars
- SCUBA equipment
- disguises
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles...ningmanual.htm

http://www.virginianewssource.com/im...rismManual.pdf

[Evariste]

things have changed after 9/11, we gotta get tough. you don't want the terrorists to win do you? we got hit man

Is the world really more dangerous after 9/11?

[stop-3]

Patterns in chaos are greatly helped if you drop great big two-thousand pound bombs (classed as not weapons of mass destruction) onto houses and hospitals and anything you want so long as you so decree that such places are the harbour of 'terrorists'. For these 'terrorists' have the power to destroy us all, with their magical weapons of mass destruction. Thus, we are not being terroristic, for we bomb them all to bits by a hail of high-explosive which is not mass destructive for we are westerners who know the language - which is, as it turns out, an exercise in pure chaos!

[Legio XX Valeria Victrix]

Ah, the joys of living in a free country!!

[The Fish]

I wonder what Orwellian, euphemistic name they're going to give this program? They insisted on calling the last unconsitutional privacy invasion the "Terrorist Surveillance Program." Now that they're clearly not monitoring terrorists, maybe they'll call it the "Completely Benign, non-threatening, and totally Consitutional Pattern Search Program."

[Gaius Baltar]

It may be the case they are taking calls and using high level filters. Such as;

1. People who call to or receive calls from countries such as Pakistan, Lebanon, Turkey, Indonesia, etc.
2. They then take these callers and look at their domestic and other international calls.
3. Look for links in the activity logs. (i.e. time date corresponsing with known terror acts, associated individuals, fianancing information etc.

I would be willing to bet if you are calling mom and dad, bro in the next county and Pizza hut, you will quickly fall off the radar.

[mike^_^]

I would be willing to bet if you are calling mom and dad, bro in the next county and Pizza hut, you will quickly fall off the radar.

I shouldn't be on the radar of an illegitimate criminal government in the first place! this is supposed to be america, NOT russia

[Red Harvest]

It may be the case they are taking calls and using high level filters. Such as;

1. People who call to or receive calls from countries such as Pakistan, Lebanon, Turkey, Indonesia, etc.
2. They then take these callers and look at their domestic and other international calls.
3. Look for links in the activity logs. (i.e. time date corresponsing with known terror acts, associated individuals, fianancing information etc.

I would be willing to bet if you are calling mom and dad, bro in the next county and Pizza hut, you will quickly fall off the radar.

Problem is that the person managing or owning the Pizza Hut could very well be of foreign descent. Or he/she might speak periodically with relatives in Pakistan or Lebanon. By Bush logic that then means that he has authority to listen in on other conversations without a warrant, including your call to Pizza Hut. Dubya's crew's judgement with prisoners and such hasn't been very accurate, and those are high profile examples. Why would anyone expect his judgement to be better where he faces less or no scrutiny? The whole warrantless wiretapping thing appears both Orwellian, and illegal. There is no oversight. The only body that could give it legitimacy has been bypassed (the FISA court.) Why? There is only one explanation that holds up to examination: the program is exceeding the Prez's constitutional authority.

Just as soon as the Dems get control of any part of congress a lot of what is really happening is going to come out in the open. The GOP has been running interference for years now, but they can only deflect the pressure as long as they have control. They have failed to govern responsibly, let's hope they are held accountable for their neglect of duty.

[Gaius Baltar]

Problem is that the person managing or owning the Pizza Hut could very well be of foreign descent. Or he/she might speak periodically with relatives in Pakistan or Lebanon. By Bush logic that then means that he has authority to listen in on other conversations without a warrant, including your call to Pizza Hut. Dubya's crew's judgement with prisoners and such hasn't been very accurate, and those are high profile examples. Why would anyone expect his judgement to be better where he faces less or no scrutiny? The whole warrantless wiretapping thing appears both Orwellian, and illegal. There is no oversight. The only body that could give it legitimacy has been bypassed (the FISA court.) Why? There is only one explanation that holds up to examination: the program is exceeding the Prez's constitutional authority.

Just as soon as the Dems get control of any part of congress a lot of what is really happening is going to come out in the open. The GOP has been running interference for years now, but they can only deflect the pressure as long as they have control. They have failed to govern responsibly, let's hope they are held accountable for their neglect of duty.

I agree completely. For several years I had a lab assistant whose husband was from Lebanon and to which they traveled every summer. I had dinner with them several times as well. Perhaps now, with all the new internationaal connections Im making on this board, that will come back to haunt me, ...and you.

[mike^_^]

Just as soon as the Dems get control of any part of congress a lot of what is really happening is going to come out in the open. The GOP has been running interference for years now, but they can only deflect the pressure as long as they have control. They have failed to govern responsibly, let's hope they are held accountable for their neglect of duty.

oh come on, you know how the game works. Just as soon as the Dems get control of congress we will be given a false victory or they will burn some underlings who aren't towing the line, they're all on the same team! they need to quickly put people back to sleep before they all start to get vigilant and start thinking for themselves. these people who sell their souls for campaign money and go around holding fundraisers spending millions of their own money to raise that money, stomp around and put on a fake persona and smile for 8 hours a day in a series of stage managed events with the public, you think they're on our side? you think they're looking out for you?

watch when hillary gets elected, everyone's going to LOVE torturing children and waging war in central asia and the middle east

*unless perhaps I mis-interpreted what you were saying, yes it can only be a good thing to have the government divided, even if both parties are totally controlled and working together, their support at the lower levels is still in the false left-right paradigm and will gridlock save a media campaign to sell it

[Red Harvest]

oh come on, you know how the game works. Just as soon as the Dems get control of congress we will be given a false victory or they will burn some underlings who aren't towing the line, they're all on the same team!

Clearly they are not on the same team. The GOP under Bush has been very much a divide and conquer group. The GOP has largely been a rule by plurality movement. Voting demographics have led them to focus on targeting one group after another: homosexuals, liberals, intellectuals, the media, blacks, now Mexicans. By keeping their own voting base motivated and pulling in enough independents the GOP could win with what amounted to a powerful minority. They really illustrated this best at school board level.

No, the Dems will be itching to even the score, as will some civil libertarian minded conservatives. Dubya has made a lot of power grabs that frighten congress. The GOP is stuck in a quandry, because if they slap his hand and investigate it will expose failures under their leadership. Those failures will cost them dearly at the polls.

Divided govt. would normally be best, but with the Dems in charge with slim majorities there would be nearly the same effect. The Dems have not been a united block as the GOP has been. The Dems have had far more divergent voices. I think it might require a short period of a Democratic House, Senate, and President to fix much of the damage that has been done in the past few years. Being so far off course requires a major steering correction.

Most of what we need in a president is everything Bush is not. A communicator, someone who can crunch numbers, pays attention to science, understands that capitalism is a great economic system not a form of govt, can meaningfully tackle rising health care costs, someone with some diplomacy, someone who can seek broad support across party lines, someone who can complete the jobs he begins, someone who can lead properly in times of crisis, someone with real moral values rather than a facade of religion, someone who can admit a mistake and tolerate dissent, someone who understands that rules apply to him as well as everyone else. We need a leader, not a clueless autocrat who believes in divine rule.

[Tom Paine]

It may be the case they are taking calls and using high level filters. Such as;

1. People who call to or receive calls from countries such as Pakistan, Lebanon, Turkey, Indonesia, etc.
2. They then take these callers and look at their domestic and other international calls.
3. Look for links in the activity logs. (i.e. time date corresponsing with known terror acts, associated individuals, fianancing information etc.

I would be willing to bet if you are calling mom and dad, bro in the next county and Pizza hut, you will quickly fall off the radar.

You may well do; but why the hell are you on there in the first place? Why is there even a radar in the first place? Especially in a nominal democracy and bastion of human rights (ha. ha. ha)

[Gaius Baltar]

You may well do; but why the hell are you on there in the first place? Why is there even a radar in the first place? Especially in a nominal democracy and bastion of human rights (ha. ha. ha)

Well, nothing is perfect. Yet the mechanisms are in place to change the system. That would not be the case, in say, Russia or China...or Mexico.

Even as we speak the Congress is considering challenges based on 4th amendment violations.

As a refresher to those who have not seen them, here are the most important documents in history.


The Declaration of Independence
http://www.archives.gov/national-arc...ranscript.html

The US Constitution
http://www.constitutioncenter.org/ex...on/index.shtml

The Bill of Rights
http://www.archives.gov/national-arc...of_rights.html

God Bless America

[whoa_AAAAHHH]

I would be willing to bet if you are calling mom and dad, bro in the next county and Pizza hut, you will quickly fall off the radar.

Say that's true..then what the hell point is this program serving? If I'm a terrorist then all I have to do is call Pizza Hut a few times and I'm off the radar?

If the options really are A) Be spyed on or B) Risk terrorist attack..I choose B. And I'll even volunteer to be a victim of that attack. Give me liberty or give me death.

There's really no point in playing the game if what it all boils down to is living under marshall-law, which may or may not be spelled correctly, just cause we're afraid of dying. I know it isn't quite that serious yet, but it has to start somewhere.

The 9/11 attacks totally sucked. And I would hope that the Government is doing it's best to prevent it from happening again in the future. All I'm saying is, if the only way we can do that is by taking away our freedoms and living under Big Brother, then what's the point? That sounds like a ****** way to live. With freedoms comes risks, and I'm personally willing to take those risks so that I can live in freedom.

Give me Freedom..or give me Death

And just for ***** and giggles, here's a fun article related to this topic: http://www.thewavemag.com/pagegen.ph...rticleid=25714

[Hub'ite]

Say that's true..then what the hell point is this program serving? If I'm a terrorist then all I have to do is call Pizza Hut a few times and I'm off the radar?

If the options really are A) Be spyed on or B) Risk terrorist attack..I choose B. And I'll even volunteer to be a victim of that attack. Give me liberty or give me death.

There's really no point in playing the game if what it all boils down to is living under marshall-law, which may or may not be spelled correctly, just cause we're afraid of dying. I know it isn't quite that serious yet, but it has to start somewhere.

The 9/11 attacks totally sucked. And I would hope that the Government is doing it's best to prevent it from happening again in the future. All I'm saying is, if the only way we can do that is by taking away our freedoms and living under Big Brother, then what's the point? That sounds like a ****** way to live. With freedoms comes risks, and I'm personally willing to take those risks so that I can live in freedom.

Give me Freedom..or give me Death

And just for ***** and giggles, here's a fun article related to this topic: http://www.thewavemag.com/pagegen.ph...rticleid=25714

Why is everyone making such a big deal about this? Its been happening for decades anyways. Eschelon anyone? Its only because a Republican(Bush) is doing it that its wrong. Its ok when Clinton did it but not if Bush does. If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to worry about. Since you volunteered to be a victim of a terrorist attack go jump out of a 100 story burning building.

[Count of Montesano]

Why is everyone making such a big deal about this? Its been happening for decades anyways. Eschelon anyone? Its only because a Republican(Bush) is doing it that its wrong. Its ok when Clinton did it but not if Bush does. If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to worry about. Since you volunteered to be a victim of a terrorist attack go jump out of a 100 story burning building.

Hub'ite I often like your views but you are wrong that this has been happening for decades. Intelligence rules used to strictly forbid spying on U.S. citizens after the abuses of McCarthy and Nixon. Were those rules sometimes broken in the 70s and 80s - probably. But even during the McCarthy era was no wholesale gathering of information on ALL citizens for no reason except to "find patterns." William Gibson was on NPR the other night talking about how most people are nonplussed about such a huge breach of our individual freedom because they incorrectly assume the government has always been listening. According to Gibson, the US now has more eavesdropping power than the KGB ever had.

I would be worried except I look at how the government handled Hurricane Katrina and realized our leaders could never orchestrate a complete takeover.
My biggest fear is the government will give hackers easy access to my info.

[Erik]

Who else gets the feeling that the NSA, after the end of the cold war, is just looking for ways to keep themselves busy?

[John I Tzimisces]

Who else gets the feeling that the NSA, after the end of the cold war, is just looking for ways to keep themselves busy?

I'd have to say that'd be the CIA. Their incompetant record kinda carried over, though.

edit: and hehe, If my family was calling lebanon, we wouldn't be speaking english anyway, and certainly not arabic, hah :laughing:

[Tom Paine]

In American history maybe, not in world history by a long shot (Treaty of Versailles, Geneva Convention, Nuremberg Laws, SALT, NATO treaty, Warsaw Pact, etc)