Questions about LOTR

[Artorius798]

Hey, I'm a big fan of LOTR but there are some things that have been puzzling me for a while and I was hoping maybe someone here could help me.

1. Dragons, Balrog, etc. are always refered to as evil creatures of an ancient time, is there more infos on these ancient times? I mean, if demons and creatures such as the Balrog and dragons were common in ancient times, it got to be quite a story!

2. The rings, what do they do exactly!? I know the Sauron's ring apparently makes him super strong and close to invincible but it makes everyone else crazy and turn's Frodo invinsible??? What about the other rings?

Thanks

[Curufin]

Oh ho ho!

Theres a book called the Silmarillion which covers the first ages of the world and wars between the Noldor (high elves) and their allies, against Melkor the great enemy ( who sauron was but a servant of).

The Dragons and Balrogs all orginate in this age, and during this time there were many balrogs who were lead by their captain Gothmog and many different dragons such as Glaurung.

Basically the world was covered in darkness as Melkor eventually defeated the elves after many hundreds of years, but when a lone man sailed to the undying lands, the home of the elves and the valar (gods), he begged for help for the free people and the war of wrath began. Melkor was thrown down and Beleriand was destroyed (beleriand was part of middle earth where these wars took place) and was washed into the sea.

I'll let some one else talk about the rings .

[Artorius798]

Oh ho ho!

Theres a book called the Silmarillion which covers the first ages of the world and wars between the Noldor (high elves) and their allies, against Melkor the great enemy ( who sauron was but a servant of).

The Dragons and Balrogs all orginate in this age, and during this time there were many balrogs who were lead by their captain Gothmog and many different dragons such as Glaurung.

Basically the world was covered in darkness as Melkor eventually defeated the elves after many hundreds of years, but when a lone man sailed to the undying lands, the home of the elves and the valar (gods), he begged for help for the free people and the war of wrath began. Melkor was thrown down and Beleriand was destroyed (beleriand was part of middle earth where these wars took place) and was washed into the sea.

I'll let some one else talk about the rings .

Omfg, #1 I need to get that book. #2 Peter better be making a movie about this!

[The Mouth]

Omfg, #1 I need to get that book. #2 Peter better be making a movie about this!

Eh I wouldn't trust him with the silmarillion, There are things in that book that would be way to hard to put on screen.

[Keyser_Soze]

Omfg, #1 I need to get that book. #2 Peter better be making a movie about this!

I hear it's so complex that a movie would be incapable of accurately portraying it in a fixating way. However, more LOTR is always good to me!

I'd also say the History of Middle Earth and Unfinished tales deal with a lot of this stuff, if often a bit more recently (before sauron lost the one ring, and also in the the 3000 years before the war of the ring). Of course, I have not read them. I'm going on what the LOTR wiki has told me

[Legolose]

Omfg, #1 I need to get that book. #2 Peter better be making a movie about this!

Naw this wont ever happen like already said there are things in that book that are hard to put on screen Not just that its WAY to long to put into a movie

[Hermes Trismegistos]

1. Yes, there are some writings about these ancient times, most prominently the "Silmarillion" and it is indeed quite a story.

2. It's a bit vague what the rings can do, but their power depends on the wearer so Sauron wearing the one ring is much more powerful than a Hobbit.

It holds part of Sauron's power and "lifeforce" which is the reason that he can't be killed as long as it exists and also that it has its own will and can corrupt its owner (which is the reason why the more powerful good guys refuse to wear it). Also whoever wears it knows everything that anyone who uses another ring is thinking and planning and can control his actions (depending to some degree on resistance and willpower of the victim). The power of the rings also seems to have been used to build many of the fortresses in Mordor (most prominently Barad-Dur) though I have no ide how exactly.

About the power of the other rings we don't know much, the power of the elven rings seems to be more to protect and preserve, the dwarven rings were used to accumulate trasure, but that might be due to the "power depending on its owner" bit not necessarily a difference in the rings itself. The only specific power that seems to be clearly distinct for a certain ring is the power to ignite the will to resistance in the minds of Sauron's enemies that's attributed to the Ring of fire that Gandalf is wearing.

Next time a question like that should go in the "Tolkien general discussion"-thread by the way.

EDIT: Crosspost.

EDIT #2: The reason why the ring makes most people invisible is that it brings the wearer in a "wraith-world", in a way the spiritual side of the world as opposed to the material, were in some ways different rules apply. Only on Sauron it doesn't seem to have that effect, I gues because he is always present in both worlds.

[Mhaedros]

However lots of smaller movies would be interesting. Narn i chin Hurin and the Lay of Leithian are personal favorites I'd like to see on movie screen. Also the jorney of Eärendil and the War of Wrath might be interesting

[conon394]

EDIT #2: The reason why the ring makes most people invisible is that it brings the wearer in a "wraith-world", in a way the spiritual side of the world as opposed to the material, were in some ways different rules apply. Only on Sauron it doesn't seem to have that effect, I gues because he is always present in both worlds.

Well presumably not on others of equal stature - Gandalf, a Balrog, Exiled Noldor. I wonder frankly if even men like Aragorn or Denethor would be invisible if they chose not to be once they had claimed and mastered the Ring... but at what cost?

The closest evidence we have is the last conversations of Isidur in the UT

Interestingly Isildur found using the ring painful. He had claimed it for his own and strove to bend it to his will. I suspect the 'pain' was likely the fact of striving with the contained evil and will of Sauron - since he had claimed it not out of greed as a tyrant nor had it changed his nature and he claimed it if you in justice - I think the pain was that of somebody struggling to master the power but to good ends. Frodo and Bilbo never really claimed the ring with a full understanding of what it was (or for Frodo until the very end) and neither had the innate power of the last living Numenorean Lord of the line Elros both faithful and born before the fall in the Land of the Star. Frodo was also rather broken at the end so its not clear how much will he had or what good intention remained. I think maybe at some point when Isidur had become a tyrant (as suggested by Galadriel) perhaps he could have mastered his state of being - but he would be lost to evil of course. On balance the opinion of Gandalf and Elrond and Galadriel is hard to argue with that the underlying nature of the Sauron power in the ring could not be neutralized.

About the power of the other rings we don't know much, the power of the elven rings seems to be more to protect and preserve

Only if but Elrond's lies the fact is Elrond and Galadriel perform a lot high level nifty magic and protecting is kind of broad term as in we are protecting Rivendell by raising floods on rivers in Gondor to smash the armies of Sauron and the fleets of Umbar...

the dwarven rings were used to accumulate trasure

It should not be forgotten that all the rings were made for the elves by the elves originally - except for Durin's ring perhaps. Sauron took 16 (15) when he destroyed Hollin and what he did to them is an open question.

It holds part of Sauron's power and "lifeforce" which is the reason that he can't be killed as long as it exists

Indeed it a the hart in the jar for Sauron, but importantly its also when lost the lost of a great deal of his own power that he can not control.

[Arǭmēz]

Unfortunatelly No movies will cover the Silmarillion or the Unfinished tales, as the producers do not have the rights to those books

[jthewonder]

Unfortunatelly No movies will cover the Silmarillion or the Unfinished tales, as the producers do not have the rights to those books

What would stop them from acquiring them? I mean Peter Jackson or whoever problably didnt have the rights to begin with either, but got them so that he could make the LotR trilogy. So while no movies are being made atm, theres no reason why they couldn't be made in the future?

[Mhaedros]

Ofc he had the rights to make the movies. Otherwise Tolkien Ent. would have been pissed off and sued him for all the money he would ever make in his entire life

[Gimli]

Hey, I'm a big fan of LOTR but there are some things that have been puzzling me for a while and I was hoping maybe someone here could help me.

1. Dragons, Balrog, etc. are always refered to as evil creatures of an ancient time, is there more infos on these ancient times? I mean, if demons and creatures such as the Balrog and dragons were common in ancient times, it got to be quite a story!

2. The rings, what do they do exactly!? I know the Sauron's ring apparently makes him super strong and close to invincible but it makes everyone else crazy and turn's Frodo invinsible??? What about the other rings?

Thanks

The Story of the Balrogs and Dragons.



1. Demons of shadow and flame. Balrogs were creatures of great power and terror. Their fundamental form appeared to be that of a man of great stature, but they were cloaked in shifting shadows and they had fiery cores.

The Balrogs dwelled in Morgoth's strongholds of Utumno and Angband in Middle-earth. When those fortresses were destroyed by the Valar in the Battle of the Powers, some Balrogs hid in the caverns below and they awaited Morgoth's return from captivity.

During the The Battle of the Sudden Flame in the year 455 of the First Age, Glaurung the Dragon led a host of Balrogs and Orcs from Angband. Morgoth's forces dealt the Elves and Men a significant defeat and drove far into Beleriand before they were turned back by Thingol.

When the Host of the Valar vanquished Morgoth in the War of the Wrath at the end of the First Age, most of the Balrogs were destroyed, but a few fled into deep underground caverns. The fate of only one of these is known: It went to the Misty Mountainsand hid at the roots of the Redhorn, where it lurked for over 6,000 years.

In 1980 of the Third Age, the Dwarves of Khaazad-Dum were delving under the Redhorn for mithril when they encountered the Balrog. The Balrog may have been roused by their mining or it may already have awakened in response to the growing power of Sauron. King Dain VI was slain by the Balrog, and the next year it killed Durin's son Nain I. The Dwarves abandoned Khazad-dum and it became known as Moria, the Black Chasm, and Orcs and other evil creatures came to dwell there.

Later the Fellowship encountered the last of the Balrogs and it was slain my Gandalf.

________________________________________________________________________________________

-Dragons

There are 4 Main Dragons for-told in Middle Earth.

Ancalagon the Black

-Greatest of the Wnged Dragons of Morgoth. Anclagon The Black was a fire breathing Dragon or Fire-Drake. He is known for the intensity of his fire.

Ancalagon the Black first appeared during the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age. Morgoth was losing the war and he released the winged Dragons from Angbad in a final attempt to defeat the Host of the Valar.


Winged Dragons had never been seen before and at first the host of the Valar retreated. Then came in his flying ship Vingilot bearing one of the Silmarils, and with him came Thorondor, King of the Eagles, leading an army of great birds. A fierce battle was fought in the air for a full day and night.

Scatha the Worm

Dragon of the Grey Mountains. Scatha the Worm wreaked havoc in the North and he gathered a great hoard of riches. Sometime during the late 20th or early 21st century of the Third Age, Scatha was slain by Fram of the Eotheod - the ancestors of the Rohirrim. After Scatha's death, the land had peace from Dragons for many years

Glaurung

First of the Dragons of Morgoth. Glaurung was a fire-breathing Dragon. He and his descendants were known as the Uruloki, or Fire-drakes. Glaurung's body was covered with hard armor except for his underbelly which was soft and vulnerable.


Glaurung did not have wings and could not fly. He crawled or slithered on his belly like a worm. He was swift and lithe though he was of great size. Glaurung had sharper eyesight than the Eagles or Elves, and his hearing was keen as well.

His body gave off heat and a terrible stench. Glaurung's strength came from the evil spirit within him which also enabled him to speak. Those who looked into his eyes fell under his spell and he was able to manipulate them. Glaurung had a strong will and he was cunning and malicious.

The other dragon is Smaug and most of you know the story of smaug from "The Hobbit"


The Story of the Great Rings of Power


The 3 Rings of the Elves.

Narya, Nenya, and Viliya. The Three Rings of the Elves were the most powerful of the Rings of Power apart from the One Ring. Their power was in understanding, making, preserving and healing. They were not weapons, though they could be used to defend against Sauron and his servants. The Three did not make their wearers invisible.

-The Ring of Fire. Narya was set with a red stone. At the time of the War of the Ring, Gandalf was the bearer of Narya.

-The Ring of Water. Nenya was set with a white diamond and its band was made of Mithril. Galadriel was the bearer of Nenya.

-The Ring of Air. Vilya was said to be the mightiest of the Three. It had a gold band set with a blue stone. At the time of the War of the Ring, Vilya was borne by Elrond

The 7 Rings of the Dwarves


Like all Rings of Power, the Seven Rings enhanced the natural powers of their bearers. The Dwarves who bore the Seven Rings became even more skilled at acquiring and preserving riches. Those who traded in gold amassed more gold, while those who traded in silver or gems or other precious materials increased them in kind. It is said that the Seven Rings were the foundation of the wealth of each of the Dwarf-kings.
But the Seven Rings also caused their bearers to become greedy and to value the acquisition of riches above all else. This obsession sometimes led the bearers of the Seven Rings to behave irrationally and to seek revenge against those they perceived as a threat to their wealth.

The 9 Rings of Men

Rings of Power used by Sauron to turn nine Men into the Nazgul The Nine Rings were each set with a gemstone. They were made by Celebrimbor andthe Elves of Eregion around 1500 of the Second Age

The Nine Rings made their wearers invisible and prolonged their lives. But these gifts soon became a curse for the Men who bore the Nine Rings. They eventually became permanently invisible and their lives were stretched out until living became unbearable. They became Wraiths, unseen except when they clad themselves in black robes. The bearers of the Nine Rings first appeared as the Ringwraiths, or Nazgul, around 2251 of the Second Age.

[conon394]

The Nine Rings made their wearers invisible and prolonged their lives.

I don't think there is any reason to think the Nine made their wielders invisible until such time as they faded into wraiths.

But the Seven Rings also caused their bearers to become greedy and to value the acquisition of riches above all else. This obsession sometimes led the bearers of the Seven Rings to behave irrationally and to seek revenge against those they perceived as a threat to their wealth.

Funny thing is the Dwarves acted that way before the rings and after when they did not have them - see Thorin in the Hobbit.

[Gimli]

I don't think there is any reason to think the Nine made their wielders invisible until such time as they faded into wraiths.
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The Nine Rings made their wearers invisible and prolonged their lives. But these gifts soon became a curse for the Men who bore the Nine Rings. They eventually became permanently invisible and their lives were stretched out until living became unbearable. They became Wraiths, unseen except when they clad themselves in black robes. The bearers of the Nine Rings first appeared as the Ringwraiths, or Nazgul, around 2251 of the Second Age.


It is told this Thains Book.

[conon394]

Thains Book.

Huh?????????

[Incredible Bulk]

where there any black human races in middle-earth?

[Keyser_Soze]

where there any black human races in middle-earth?

There are black "troll men" in Far Harad, that is, the africa-like continent to the far south of harad. Other than that, I don't think there are any.

[Incredible Bulk]

ok so no real "Humans", just curious thanks Keyser-Soze

[Gimli]

The Black Troll Men of Harad are the only Black Race fore-told in Middle Earth.

Do the Men of Gondor have the blood of Numenor and Edain in them? Thats the one thing i've been wondering.