The future of Kosovo

[Svarog]

This subject is alot more complex than it it seems at the first glance. It all boils down to which constallations NATO/EU likes and which it doesn't. Unfortunately, a solidified Serbian state doesn't.

Russia too has problems with extremists who are murdering and slaughtering their way to independence for Chechnya. Russia has been accused of the same atrocities as Serbia, yet NATO isn't bombing them. Why? Russia possesses the world's single largest nuclear arsenal, that's why. If Serbia had access to WMD's, no one would have gave a rat's ass about the whole conflict. Serbia is considered a Russian sphere of influence --and Russian influence doesn't sides too well with NATO/EU eastern expansion plans --nor does Yugoslavia. "Divide and conquer" is fitting all too well for this one.

Where would Europe end up if we start splitting nations just because it contains a large number of foreigners. Turks already make up a large percentage of Germany's population. Does this gives them the right to annex Hamburg or Berlin? There is an alarming number of muslims in central and western Europe, should they get their European islamic state now? Certainly not.

[Legiondude]

On what basic of positive low you are proposing this? How you are going to take away territory of country against its will? Albanians are now 90% of population so what( just before WWII, there was no more than 50% of them, so just this data is very discussable how that “oppressed” population increased dramatically and “oppressors” decreasing dramatically…but leave this discussion to the low without historical issues). Serbs were constructive nation in former Yugoslavia, as well constructive nation in Bosnia and Croatia unlike Albanians who had a status of national minority. Therefore, any secession of Bosnia and Croatia was against the low if not all constructive nations agree. Because US decided that Yugoslavia should brake up on the republic borders, denying Serbian right to stay in the country, we have now countries like Croatia (which totally ethnically cleansed its Serbian population in 1995 with support, preparation and even direct involvement of peace loving “democratic” Bill Clinton administration) and Bosnia and Herzegovina. So you would give right to national minority (Albanians) right to unite with another country (Albania) completely destroying international order of non changing external borders and you have denied right of constructive nation (Serbs) to stay in its own country (former Yugoslavia)? Do you have any idea what this means for the World? Forget Serbian-Albanian relations and especially regional disaster witch would follow.

you post this, but yet you dont seem to mind that republika srpska in bosnia hercegovina is also etnicley cleansed....... Within the federation there are stil places where there is a serb majority, but eastern bosnia, that had 66% bosniaks before the war, now has 66% serbs...



you once said that serbs only commited etnich cleansing in srebrenica, no, the whole of eastern bosnia, srebrenica was the place where serb forces killed evry able bodyed male..

please let me know, in operation "oluja" was ever able bodyed serb man killed?



Further you dont seem to care about the difference about jugoslavia before and after the annexation of kosovo and vojvodina, who had special status within the serb federal republic to protect etnich minorities in kosovo and vojvodina?

milosevic wanted a jugoslavia that was serb dominated, the same way alija wanted bosnia that was bosniak dominated...

one can not think that poeple of the other groups want to stay together after this....


what i find intresting is, in kosovo, you sau that there were serb majority before, true, but the same might be said about krajna, correct me if i'm wrong but serbs were settled in krajna also, if you want to go back hundreds of years everyhing will have belonged to everyone at some point......[i can find you maps when the bosnjani controlled what is now serbia, you can find maps when serbia had an empire and controlled the greeks]

in my opinion, 1/3 of kosovo should stay serbian, and the rest be given to albania that way you guys would stop the problem, and the now serb minority would have their own part...

what is tragic about kosovo is that it was not devided by half when titos jugoslavia was made, kosovo became a layabilty, and much of serb nationalisam, and slobos rise to power is linked to the problem of serbs loosing ground in kosovo, had a line been set at the start everyone would be better off

[RusskiSoldat]

it is intresting that you have the stalin avatar at the same time that you are opting for hated toward an etnich group.

Why is that interesting?
I show no hate, only logic.
Stalin deported the Chechens (and of course the idiot Khruschev brought them back, creating the problem we have no. They cooperated with the Germans during WWII, and were rightfully branded as traitors. Their only home should be the icy vastness of Siberia.) among others, all in order to solidify the state.
Kosovar Albanians should keep quiet, or their revolts would be put down by Serbia.
At least in a good world, as it stands the great western legion of whatever is doing the same thing it always does: nothing.
And the Serbs can't do anything either, because if there's one thing that westerners (and all democrats) are good at is doing absolutely nothing with the exception of stiffling anyone's attempts to get something done.
Then again, Yugoslavia is a pipe dream.
Th Balkans didn't earn the label of Insane Asylum of Europe for no reason, the people there possess fiery tempers and disunity, so that the smallest spark starts a huge revolt/war/ethnic cleansing.
Yugoslavia could only work if it was ruled by someone who didn't give clear prefferences to any side.

[Fenris]

They should make a nation out of Kosovo, or a referendum about what option they prefer (joining Albania for example). I don't believe that centralised governments are the solution.

[Legiondude]

well, you do, why should the chechens want to be ruled by the federation?
this is not the USSR anymore, this is the rusiska federacija?
I suggest we communicate in English-or at least Greek -Garb.

and you are not able to see logicley, even at the "drugi srpski ustanak" there were more albanians then serbs in kosovo...

the theory that you are supporing would be just as me saying that BanjaLuka should be in the federation couse mideval bosnia "bosjnani" ruled it

also you are ackting like federation troops have not commited acts of terror in checnya


as for jugoslavia, it is deepley tragic that people who look the same and talk the same have devided into 3 groups, also after titos death, and in the end of the 80s nationalist of all sides began to come for power, milosevic izetbegovic etc....

Why is that interesting?
And the Serbs can't do anything either, because if there's one thing that westerners (and all democrats) are good at is doing absolutely nothing with the exception of stiffling anyone's attempts to get something done.
Then again, Yugoslavia is a pipe dream.
Th Balkans didn't earn the label of Insane Asylum of Europe for no reason, the people there possess fiery tempers and disunity, so that the smallest spark starts a huge revolt/war/ethnic cleansing.
Yugoslavia could only work if it was ruled by someone who didn't give clear prefferences to any side.

I agree with the balkans beeing a white somalia, but what u mean by the serbs cant do anything? the SFRJ died the day Slobodan Miosevic annexed kosovo and vojvodina, also what is it you plan for the serbs to do? I'm not saying that Bosniak hands are clean after the war, but on far less accasions did our side commited etnich cleansing and war crimes..

Problem is, as i see it, that souther slav have a geen for stupidety, and so have a need to devide into 3 groups, basicley croats bosniaks and serbs look more or less the same and talk the same language...


what amazez me, you want chechens to be deported, and albanians should have to live under serb rule??

by your logic, since most of war crimes in bosnia were done by serbs, they should as a people get deported? Flame removed-Garb

[RusskiSoldat]

well, you do, why should the chechens want to be ruled by the federation?

The more important question is when anyone asked them what they want.
They should be thankful for Khruschev's childlike sense of mercy.

this is not the USSR anymore, this is the rusiska federacija?

I have no idea what this rusiska federacija is, but this is the Rossiyskaya Federatziya.

sam u pravu...

I don't speak whatever language it is that you speak.
I only understood "self" out of that.

and you are not able to see logicley, even at the "drugi srpski ustanak" there were more albanians then serbs in kosovo...

What the hell is this drugi srpski ustanak?
Something about friends, Serbia and a mouth?

the theory that you are supporing would be just as me saying that BanjaLuka should be in the federation couse mideval bosnia "bosjnani" ruled it

I'm saying all of Yugoslavia should be in a federation.

also you are ackting like federation troops have not commited acts of terror in checnya

Terror?
Hardly.
Name me some acts of terror.
And if you use kavkazcentr as a source, I will laugh at you.

as for jugoslavia, it is deepley tragic that people who look the same and talk the same have devided into 3 groups, also after titos death, and in the end of the 80s nationalist of all sides began to come for power, milosevic izetbegovic etc....

It is.
Nationalism in multinational countries simply doesn't work.

I agree with the balkans beeing a white somalia, but what u mean by the serbs cant do anything? the SFRJ died the day Slobodan Miosevic annexed kosovo and vojvodina, also what is it you plan for the serbs to do? I'm not saying that Bosniak hands are clean after the war, but on far less accasions did our side commited etnich cleansing and war crimes..

I'm saying the Serbs need to establish order and show the Albanians who's boss, because the UN sure isn't going to.

Problem is, as i see it, that souther slav have a geen for stupidety, and so have a need to devide into 3 groups, basicley croats bosniaks and serbs look more or less the same and talk the same language...

Different alphabet, different religion.
Although neither should really matter this day and age.

what amazez me, you want chechens to be deported, and albanians should have to live under serb rule??

Chechens shouldn't be deported.
Too late for that by now.
And Kosovo needs to be under someone's rule.
Someone who is strong.

by your logic, since most of war crimes in bosnia were done by serbs, they should as a people get deported? you even know how stupid this sounds

Did they cooperate with an enemy invader for their own sake?
soft, sweet, and mild troll removed-Garb

[Legiondude]

when did the bosnian cooperate with an invader?

i'm sorry i spelled the rusian federation wrongly, the srpski ustanakt was a revolt against turk rule in the balkans in the start of the 1800s, when serb troops came to kosovo i belive one of their generals said that there are more albanians then serbs here or something like thath

your defenition of terror is strange, are you saying that russian forces have not attacked civilian targets?

when i said the federation, i was talking about the bosniak-croat federation, the BiH is split in 2 after the war, and banja luka is and was before the war a serb city, i am saying that by your logic that kosovo should all be rulled by serbia, couse it was serb long time ago, then banja luka should be controlled by the federation, this to show it was absured

Merged double post-Valus

[Garbarsardar]

Use English please. Or Greek . Garb.

[RusskiSoldat]

I wasn't talking about anything related to the Turks.
By invaders I meant Americans.
My knowledge of the Yugoslav civil war is fuzzy, but I know that either the Bosnjaks or the Croats, if not both, cried their eyes out so that America would save them from the big, bad Serbs.

[Red Harvest]

I wasn't talking about anything related to the Turks.
By invaders I meant Americans.
My knowledge of the Yugoslav civil war is fuzzy

Obviously...

, but I know that either the Bosnjaks or the Croats, if not both, cried their eyes out so that America would save them from the big, bad Serbs.

And NATO didn't invade, LOL. It was an air campaign, invasion was unnecessary. The Bosnians and Croats whipped the Serbs on the ground. Ditto for Kosovo.

Russia did invade Kosovo with her "Peacekeepers" on June 12th, 1999. That's the really funny part about your claim. You got it bass ackwards.

Our mistake was in not arming the Bosnians, Croats, and Kosovars from the beginning. With only one side having heavy weapons it was rather lopsided and allowed the Serbian leaders to run roughshod over their neighbors.

[Nestor Drake]

I really can't understand people who say Yugoslavia should have remained intact. It's absurd that after everything that had happend somebody still believes this. I mean, how much more proof do you need that it couldn't, it can't and it wouldn't work? If south Slavs were one nation then they would be one nation. It is so simple. In the collective mind of the South Slavic peoples it doesn't say "I am South Slav" or "I am Yugoslav", it says "I am Slovenian", "I am Serb", "Bosniak", "Croat", "Macedonian", "Montenegrin". Nobody can't change that. Ever. Tito tried and he failed, with all his carisma, influence and more or less subtle methods of preventing even slightest nationalism, in the end he failed miserably. The identity of us all is buried too deep in the subconscious, it's been there for centuries and it can't disappear for all the utopists of the world.

Even if you would remove this error and create a multiethnic state which would be perfectly rightous for all the nations within I doubt it could survive. The cultural, religious, social, economic and political differences are too great and they outweight the similarities. In Europe there are many countries that could be merged using the criteria that is used to back the claim that Yugoslavia is the way it should be.

Often, I've also seen the argument that one big country is better than X smaller ones and I can only say that this is beyond absurdity and usually comes form people who have absolutly no idea what they are talking about. The logic is basically "The map looks better with bigger countries. It's easier for me to find my way around. Why did they have to make it so complicated now?". I ask what is it that makes South Slavic nations different from other nations in Europe that have the right to their own state?

Are they too small? - What about Luxemburg, Malta, Belgium, Lichtenstein, Slovakia, Baltic states, San Marino?

The nations are too similar? - What about Slovakia and Czech Rep., Scandinavian nations and for the love of God what about Germany and Austria which were only few hundered years ago one nation?

They seemed fine so far, why not keep it that way? - They were NOT fine. That's why they broke apart, it didn't happen out of the blue.

They are bloody savages, they do not deserve an own state. - Let me see the one who deserves to be the judge of that.

Once created federation shouldn't be so easily split apart. - Nobody cryed about SSSR and Czechoslovakia.


So I think nations have the right to determine their own destiny. Once this right is denied, the one who did it has no more rights of his own to claim. This goes for former Yugoslav nations, for Chechens, for Palestinians, Basks, Abhazians etc. I don't care if they are the biggest terrorist scum of the world because a nation whose freedom is denied cannot be held responsible for any action taken.

The problem of Kosovo is that even though there Albanians are majority, in Serbia as a whole they are minority and they (they as in Albanian nation) already have a state so technically the Serbs are not negating their right to be sovereign. In this situation, I'd normally be against the separation, but it's a tough choice here since leaving it as a part of Serbia (with any level of independence) would require a really, really long reintergration period and the current situation on the ground would produce a really high level of popular unrest in case this kind of decision was made.

[Legiondude]

I wasn't talking about anything related to the Turks.
By invaders I meant Americans.
My knowledge of the Yugoslav civil war is fuzzy, but I know that either the Bosnjaks or the Croats, if not both, cried their eyes out so that America would save them from the big, bad Serbs.

Keeping in mind that 84% of the civilian losses in Bosnia were Bosnjaks, i find it amuzing how you claim "cried their eyes out"

i doubt that you or 4th regiment would dare say a lot of your BS to my face, but then again serb forces only had the balls to shell my city and kill civilians....


in 95' there was a NATO air campaign agains serb artillery positions that had been shelling sarajevo non stop the last 3 years....

keeping in mind that most of the former jugos weaponery was stole/"inherted" by serb nationalists and the bosnjaks had less weapons, at the same time that our leaders were corrupt[and also wanted war by rejecting some peace plan right before the war], but what do you care, you think that chechens should be deported...


I dont get it, do you truley belive that russian federation troops have not commited acts of terror in checnya?

Basicley all 3 sides commited crimes, but one side exeded the others a lot in its cruelty, and rape camps, and terror bombing civlians...

but russiki soldat at least we share the same opinion on how jugo should be, shame it colapsed

[Red Harvest]

Kosovars should determine their own direction. Serbia lost that right, along with the right to dictate to the other members of the former Yugoslavia. They never really had it in the first place...but they though they did so the state splintered. Why Serbia should be allowed ANY say in the matter is beyond me. Who other than Serbs would want to be under any sort of Serbian rule given recent history?

Russia has made its own mess in Chechnya over the years. I'm not fond of what the Chechens have been doing, but when Russia decided to subdue an independent Chechnya the first time, they made a huge mistake. Later Chechen actions to spread chaos around were stupid and indefensible as well. So the second invasion was necessary, despite the error of the initial conflict.

Any time someone has to stoop to defending Stalin's genocidal tendencies, they have a big problem with their basis.

[RusskiSoldat]

Keeping in mind that 84% of the civilian losses in Bosnia were Bosnjaks, i find it amuzing how you claim "cried their eyes out"

No ****?
Most of the civilian casualties in Ukraine during WWII were the Ukrainish.
Amazing?

i doubt that you or 4th regiment would dare say a lot of your BS to my face, but then again serb forces only had the balls to shell my city and kill civilians....

What 4th regiment?
And I'm guessing the Serbs would've taken the city if they could.
How much sense does it make for them to shell a city in their homeland if they can retake it?

keeping in mind that most of the former jugos weaponery was stole/"inherted" by serb nationalists and the bosnjaks had less weapons, at the same time that our leaders were corrupt[and also wanted war by rejecting some peace plan right before the war], but what do you care, you think that chechens should be deported...

Yes, yes I do.
They helped make roads in the mountains to guide the Germans to Baku faster.
And I am against rebellion in most forms.

I dont get it, do you truley belive that russian federation troops have not commited acts of terror in checnya?

Yes, such acts are inevitable in war.
On a widespread scale?
Of course not.

[crjs1]

Surely all peoples should have the right to self determination, if the majority of the Kosovan Albanians desire thier own nation-state of course they should have it.

[Salvantis]

There is nothing worse than people who think that they know much about something they obviously don't know absolutely anything. I can understand different opinions about some historical or political questions on this forum (or even different opinion about PC games), but every argument, especially political ones, should be based on something you really know well (or you just shut up and listen other people). But some of you guys... I'm reading this stuff and can't believe that there are so many "very informed" people, who actually doesn't even know where Kosovo is, at least something about its history. No, just too much of antiserb propaganda which is last decade constantly bombarded by CNN, BBC and other "very objective" western media. I don't even know where to begin, or which lie is more disgusting from so many you have posted in this thread. First your "statistics" about Kosovo and Bosnia are such malicious nonsense that i don't even want to comment. Just maybe you could read something from Serb sources (for a change) or some objective and neutral historians, like russians, or some historical acurate stats about ethnical structure of Balkans at the beginning of 20th centrury (but in last decade even that is tremendously falsified and history is comletely rewritten by antiserb war lobbysts from US and Britain mainly) . No, its much easier to read some albanian terrorist writter and his US supporters, how bul****ing some about ethnical cleansing.
Milosevic annexed Kosovo and Vojovodina? "drugi srpski ustanak"? Banjaluka was muslim? What the you are talking about ?????? "nations" which gained everything they have by centuries long ethnical cleansing now are the victims, and the real victims are the villians. In this world where occupation is proclaimed as liberation, and where bush and blair are global freedom fighters, this could even be logical.
Talking about ethnical cleansing and crimes :
you probably didn't know that even today, as you here are crying for albanians, two young serb are fighting for their lives, for thay were heavily injured by albanians terrorist last night, in Kosovska Mitrovica. They also attacked and burned yet another serbian church, in Podujevo, which has not been entirely repaired from last attack( march 2004.). But i guess that is not news for CNN. Maybe its not; its just another day for serbian population at Kosovo (for those serbian minority who still trying to live in that hell, and are not fled or been killed by your precious albanian "victims")
And about self determination:I totally agree with you. But you should first give that right all those minorities in your own countries before you teach someone else. By the way, the Serbs are only nation which that right was denied.

[Legiondude]

There is nothing worse than people who think that they know much about something they obviously don't know absolutely anything. I can understand different opinions about some historical or political questions on this forum (or even different opinion about PC games), but every argument, especially political ones, should be based on something you really know well (or you just shut up and listen other people). But some of you guys... I'm reading this stuff and can't believe that there are so many "very informed" people, who actually doesn't even know where Kosovo is, at least something about its history. No, just too much of antiserb propaganda which is last decade constantly bombarded by CNN, BBC and other "very objective" western media. I don't even know where to begin, or which lie is more disgusting from so many you have posted in this thread. First your "statistics" about Kosovo and Bosnia are such malicious nonsense that i don't even want to comment. Just maybe you could read something from Serb sources (for a change) or some objective and neutral historians, like russians, or some historical acurate stats about ethnical structure of Balkans at the beginning of 20th centrury (but in last decade even that is tremendously falsified and history is comletely rewritten by antiserb war lobbysts from US and Britain mainly) . No, its much easier to read some albanian terrorist writter and his US supporters, how bul****ing some about ethnical cleansing.
Milosevic annexed Kosovo and Vojovodina? "drugi srpski ustanak"? Banjaluka was muslim? What the you are talking about ?????? "nations" which gained everything they have by centuries long ethnical cleansing now are the victims, and the real victims are the villians. In this world where occupation is proclaimed as liberation, and where bush and blair are global freedom fighters, this could even be logical.
Talking about ethnical cleansing and crimes :
you probably didn't know that even today, as you here are crying for albanians, two young serb are fighting for their lives, for thay were heavily injured by albanians terrorist last night, in Kosovska Mitrovica. They also attacked and burned yet another serbian church, in Podujevo, which has not been entirely repaired from last attack( march 2004.). But i guess that is not news for CNN. Maybe its not; its just another day for serbian population at Kosovo (for those serbian minority who still trying to live in that hell, and are not fled or been killed by your precious albanian "victims")
And about self determination:I totally agree with you. But you should first give that right all those minorities in your own countries before you teach someone else. By the way, the Serbs are only nation which that right was denied.

when i spoke of the bosnjani, i think you ought to know that the turm is the "before" term og bosniak, and it describes the inhabitants ef medieval bosnia[ah yes bosnia was also a kingdom before the ottomans, stop with the"faith of forfathers" obsession] i was trying to proove a point that if you long ago back anything could belong to anyone, and it has been a while since serbs were half of the population in kosovo.. 1800s or something myabe even fore that, correct me if im wrong....

i have read from other surces, and i even mentioned that alija rejected in 91' a rather fair peace plan.....
a peace plan that could have saved us from this war

annexetion of kosovo and vojvodina of slobodan milosevic is when the special status these parts of the serb fed rupublic to ensure the rights of hungerians and albanians. [something that was protected by the SFRJ constitution]

in bosnia most civlian deats were bosnjak, and keeping in mind that serb side had more heavy weapons, and also used paramiltry formation more intrensley this is hardly something that is suprizing....

the thing with kosovo is that it was a lyabilty for the SFRJ half should have been given to albania...

basicley, if kosovo is independent then the serbs there are oppressed, if it is serb then the albanians are oppressed.... so they should devide it

it is funny that serbs complein about kosovo getting independents at the same time that republika srpska in bosnia is standing on ground where bosnjaks were a majority before the was, namly eastern bosnia where large scale genocide was done....

i do how ever agree with you when you are ****** about dubble standars, had it not suited the USA they wouldnt have lifted a finger, no matter what happened in kosovo..
and no one cares about the 100s of wars in afrika happening each day

also, no one in western media is mentioning the ww2 genocide against serbs, as this would make croat and bosnjak natioanlisam look bad....
so i get your points, but in the last war in bosnia, if you truly belive that you were the victims, then i am suprized, i'm not saying that Bosnian and Croat side didnt do crimes, they/we did...
organizations like the "mladi muslimani" did do crimes no one is denying that, but if you look on the war as a whole, then it is obvius who did most crimes

[QUOTE=RusskiSoldat]No ****?
What 4th regiment?
And I'm guessing the Serbs would've taken the city if they could.
How much sense does it make for them to shell a city in their homeland if they can retake it?
QUOTE]

hardley their homeland, it was in the Bosnian and Croat kingdoms respecivley, and under ottoman and austrian rule...
30% of the inhabitants of sarajeov were serbs before the war 50% bosnjaks, 15 croats, and 5% were either jugoslavs or other options

Serb side had enough weapons to take sarajevo but not enough troops..

what good is a tank if no one is manning it...


about ukraina i tought that in ww2 the place that had most colaboratur in ww2 in the SSSR was western ukrain where the western ukraninas helped out in genocide? [kiilling local polulation and also killing jews]

i belive around Lvov.....

Merged double post-Valus

[Red Harvest]

No, just too much of antiserb propaganda which is last decade constantly bombarded by CNN, BBC and other "very objective" western media. I don't even know where to begin, or which lie is more disgusting from so many you have posted in this thread. First your "statistics" about Kosovo and Bosnia are such malicious nonsense that i don't even want to comment. Just maybe you could read something from Serb sources (for a change) or some objective and neutral historians, like russians

LOL, the Russians are neutral historians? That is hilarious. I've listended to a few Russian broadcasts and was amazed by such absolute crap passed off as news. (They manage to make FOX look incredibly "fair and balanced.") The Serb's went on a nationalistic/genocidal binge while the rest of the world was watching. Big mistake for them. For the most part the fever has broken, but it will take decades or perhaps even centuries to undo the damage.

Folks in the former Communist sphere have a long way to go in understanding what a more objective media is. They can't seem to filter out the garbage from the truth. When they've had a century or two of free press perhaps they will start toget the hang of it. It's really amusing (and at the same time sad) because the same people will state how their former govts were feeding them propaganda they didn't believe, and then on the other hand defend the same propaganda against the western media.

It's really hard to take Russians seriously when they defend Stalin, and I've known too many Russians who still do just that--and then spout the same old views on Chechens, Bosnians, Croats, and Kosovars. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad, but from my personal experiences with Russians/Serbs, many have the same sort of mindset as mid 19th century America. That's not good because that was a time when media tended to be very politicized/less objective (but at least diverse), while Black slavery, and elimination of the Indians were still acceptable. Over time Serbs and Russians are going to look back on this period with the same sort of amazement and disgust as Americans have when looking back at racial policies of earlier eras. I'm patient enough to wait for them to catch up.

[Legiondude]

in my mind the "real" soviet union dream died with lenin, lenin even worned that stalin was way to evil...
[something clearly shown]
but he stil also won ww2, and the soviet union got better living standards...
also he wanted to go to space? so he did also do good things

anyways who cares, some more extreme serbs, are justefying genocide on bosniaks and croats bye saying that they are just serbs who coverted from ortodox faith[something that has no justification in history, before the ottomans came there were LESS ortodox churces in bosnia, the population was mostley catholic or bosnian church] not that this is relevant but it is strange to use faked historey to support genocide....

but i do get some og the points that the serb dude posted about media, even dough i get all ****** keeping in mind that some of "them" dont recognize my right to exsistance...


but stil, western media is showing crimes done by serbs, but not that often crimes against serbs, i have not heared about krajna or oluja[operation to etnicley cleanse a part of croata of serbs] in the media, so even dough i got ****** by some of the things they say, i get some of their points...
notabley all sides suffered and all did cirimes..

but note that even dough all sides did crimes, all sides did not do as much crimes!!!!
so everyone is to blame, but bosnians and croats didnt shell banjaluka for three years and snipering civlians!!!!!!!!!1
and keeping in mind that there were camps in bosnia, and also rape camps where bosnjak and craot women were abused.... i got make a list of crimes here, but it would take up the whole page...

basicley as long as "they" lol[us and them, this sounds stupid], dont BS with the "faith of forefathers", and admit that there was a bosnia before ottoman times, and dont go around shouting "go karadic" i have nothing against them..

also some of the gruges they have date back to ww1 times when austro hungary unsuccsesfully attacked serbia, then germany attacked, then the serb army had to flee over the mauntain and a lot of people died, basicley maybe not that much in the last balkan war, but before that they did defintley also suffer, and sometimes no one bothers to mention that, and then they get all ******..

but the dude who posted here claimed some other wery funny things that i quote "i'm not even gonna bother commenting to" :laughing:

[Salvantis]

First and most importantly, i never said that any serb didn't commited any crime during this last wars. Sadly, there were more criminals and more crimes on our side than probably in our entire history. We were victims of various ethnical violences for centuries (which very often could easily be defined as pure genocid). This time we were tired of forgive and forget policy and just wanted to strike back. And some individuals from milosevics corrupted and immoral regime dishonoured our history and our ancestors. Still don't think that we commited the most or the worst crimes. We just were military strongest faction and controled the most territory, but in territories under bosnian and croat control there were more and oftenly far worse crimes, which western medias totally ignored (and still are ignored by so called Hague tribunal). Of course i'm aware that any comparasion of dead bodies, is at least, very distasteful.
Briefly all sides commited crimes but only the serbs were proclaimed as villains.
Very importantly everything previous is about war in Bosnia. Kosovo is something completely different. And one of the biggest mistake is to even compare conflict in bosnia (which was terrible civil war) and albanian terrorist uprising in kosovo. Serb crimes in kosovo ( if there was any) were nothing compared with albanian genocidal policy which they are still using even more than ever.
Second you can not annex part of your own territory. And kosovo, under the international law, was and STILL IS part of Serbia.

"hardley their homeland, it was in the Bosnian and Croat kingdoms respecivley, and under ottoman and austrian rule...
30% of the inhabitants of sarajeov were serbs before the war 50% bosnjaks, 15 croats, and 5% were either jugoslavs or other options

In medieval it was Kingdom of Bosnia (by geographical term) not bosnian kingdom (by nation) because nation of bosnians, bosniaks or whatever never existed. Bosnia never was croat kingdom and don't even know where did you found such nonsense. "Under ottoman and austrian rule"...and Iraq is under US rule (rule = occupation) so what is your point? And your "statistics" again is as malicious as untrue. Honestly, there are so many different stats about ethnical structure of every bosnian city before this (and also previous) war, that this litiation is become one of the most disgusting features of bosnian and other balkans conflicts.
And its not sarajeov, its sarajevo.
"hardley their homeland"-of course. The Serbs didn't live there for centuries, they just come from Mars and invaded peaceful bosnian state. And one day we will conquer the world ! At least if christiana amampur and other CNN bi***es don't stop us.

LOL, the Russians are neutral historians? That is hilarious.

CERNSORED .
What do you really know about communist states? You obviously don't know anything about your country, but you are try to lecture me about media in my (or in russia). I'm not a communist but personaly i think that USSR was much democratic state than US was, is, or will ever be. CENSORED..
One more thing: nation of KOSOVARS doesn't exist or ever was. They are albanians same as albanians from albania. They already have their national state (actually we gave them freedom and state or they probably still be part of Turkey)