Indian faction
The thought of Naked Indian Female archers makes me cringe! I hope CA treat the Indian faction with some respect. Indian army of that time were just as sophisticated and organised as the greeks and persians, they just never bothered trying to conquer the west and were more preoccuipied with fighting among themselves.
Re: Indian faction
Well with only 4 factions CA have no excuse to neglect any faction or say that a faction is unimportant.
Re: Indian faction
The Macedonians were definetly more organized than both the persians and the indians. I'm not saying that those guys were disorganized, but...
Civitate
Re: Indian faction
But?Originally Posted by EvilNed
Makedonia was far from organised when Philip became king in 358 BC: it was a small barbarian tribe compared to the huge Persian empire. The Persians laid the foundations for the Hellenic governments and administration, often forgotten by people who follow Herodotos' view of the Persians as weak, unorganised infidels. During both Phillip's and Alexander's reign, other states didn't ally with the Makedonian state, but with Phillip or Alexander: the state depended on its king.
In patronicum sub Tacticalwithdrawal
Brother of Rosacrux redux and Polemides
hoi polloi
Re: Indian faction
Red Baron
Some Hellenic Governments to some extent…
I am assuming you mean HellenisticThe Persians laid the foundations for the Hellenic governments and administration
While the Successor monarchies were a fusion of Persian and Macedonian structures and traditions other quintessentially Hellenistic polities, like Rhodes, Achaean League, the ‘Kingdom’ of Agathocles, or the revived Sparta where based not at all on Persian foundations. Even the Successors often used fundamentally Greek structures more than is often appreciated whether it be the League of Corinth and its attempted revival by Demetrius or the Island legume formed by the Ptolemy’s.
IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites
'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'
But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.
Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.
Arta. Data. Anusyia.
Re: Indian faction
"The Macedonians were definetly more organized than both the persians and the indians. I'm not saying that those guys were disorganized, but..."
A Persian army already using uniforms, heraldry, battle standards and horns to dictate troop movements for hundereds of years is far from disorganised. the spad decimal system of troop placement and a VERY clear officer hierarchy from the Satapatis to the King is again Far from disorganised. In fact i would say the organisational capabilites of the persians surpassed the Greeks and Macedonians.
Fielding multi - lingual, multi - cultural armies of great size cannot be taken as a simple task. Neither can the incredible logistical talent of mustering them and then taking them on the march
And i believe Red Baron is referring to the infrastructure of the Persian empire which Alexander inherited - at least thats what i would argue.
I don't think i need to mention the battle record of the PERSIAN contingents as they speak for themselves as exemplary.
Edit: a source of great disappointment to myself is that i am unable to speak for the Indians with the same depth as the Persians
Last edited by rez; May 11, 2006 at 11:30 AM.
Re: Indian faction
Great, then we're in agreement. As you can see, I never stated the persians were disorganized. But their camps were little less than levies thrown together.
Dux Limitis
Re: Indian faction
READ his post.
he said 'im not saying that those guys were disorganised'
jesus christ and u guys all start bashing him about organisation.
Re: Indian faction
Is that an attempt at commedy? Is that why they crushed Alexander at the Battle of Issus? Oh, no, wait, they lost that battle dispite overwhelming odds.
Is that why the Persians annihilated the Macedonians at the Battle of Gaugamela despite being outnumbered 3 to 1? Oh, no, wait, they lost that one too.
Arta. Data. Anusyia.
Re: Indian faction
then read MY post. i said the Persians were superior in organisation...
Vae victis
Re: Indian faction
I would have to say that the Persians would have to be more organized to assemble such large armies of multi-lingual and cultural armies. On the other hand, the Macedonians were just one nation with the same culture and language. It was far easier to contol a Macedonian army because of it, so this leads some to beleive that the Macedonain army was more organized. It wasn't more organized, just easier to control.
Blut und Boden
hoi polloi
Re: Indian faction
Uniforms? For whom? Certainly not across the mass of Persian levy troops…A Persian army already using uniforms, heraldry, battle standards and horns to dictate troop movements for hundereds of years is far from disorganised. the spad decimal system of troop placement and a VERY clear officer hierarchy from the Satapatis to the King is again Far from disorganised. In fact i would say the organisational capabilites of the persians surpassed the Greeks and Macedonians.
Heraldry (of a sort), national symbols, horns and standards, flag signals can all be demonstrated for the Greeks as well. I would rather suggest that while the organizational capability of the Persians may be understated, so is that of the Greeks (largely and often both are understated to the benefit of Philip and Alexander…).
I’m not so sure on that clear officer structure. The Spartans seem to have been able to manipulate the Persian power structure often and continually in their hostilities with Persia before the outbreak of the Corinthian war. The arrest of Conon and his release during that war is another example of the rather murky lines of communication between Great King, Satrap and other officials…
IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites
'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'
But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.
Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.
Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
Re: Indian faction
That's not entirely accurate, because the Macedonians also had a number of allies. For a start there were many soldiers from the Southern Greek cities (except of course Sparta), not to mention Agrianes, Triballians, Mysians and various other subject peoples. As it happens, the Macedonian army (especially after Philip's reforms) was probably very well organised, with various specific divisions with particular roles on the battlefield widely attested, unlike the Persian force which seems to have been made up largely of various different tribes under their own leader's control (following orders from the Great King). The Persian forces actually weren't as large as is often thought (Arrian tells us that Darius had a million men at Gaugamela, Diodorus Siculus says that he had 250,000, and various other huge figures fly about). Firstly, it would be almost impossible to raise those sorts of numbers in time for the battle. Then there's the question of how you could possibly feed them all. Then how would you coordinate such a large force to all arrive at the battlefield at the same time? And how could you actually fit a million men onto the battlefield?
The Persians probably were more numerous than the Macedonians, but don't downplay Macedonian military discipline and national diversity.
Αρχιεπισκοπή Θυατείρων και Μεγάλης Βρεττανίας - Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great Britain
Under the patronage of therussian
Re: Indian faction
The Persians probably numbered somewhere between 200,000-250,000 at Gaugamela. Darius considered this to be his last stand (altough had he lived, he would probably have called up more troops). And yes, the persian elite troops, the mercenaries and alot of his upper class soldiers were well organized. But the levies (which mostly made up his reserves) were not that organized and I imagine that they never were in any persian army.
Arta. Data. Anusyia.
Re: Indian faction
The likes of Sekunda and Head, amongst others i dont have on me right now, all agree the represenations of persians from reliefs, whilst not 100% proven, suggest an actual system of uniformed troops due to the repeated patterns and styles. the fact that the "immortals" (arstibara) have only two different variations from the glazed brick reliefs when the actual amount of friezes far surpasess this has even provoked the suggestion that there were two different regiments. I however disagree as the second uniform could be for the satapatis units.
At the battle of cunaxa both Cyrus and Artaxerxes II have their personal troops in respective colours and uniforms. (their troops both being Persian cavalry contingents)
Im suggesting the proffesional part of the army was largely uniform in appearance. it would have been impossible to apply this to the lower echelons of society. Especially when considering attic pottery depictions.
However is this demonstrated on such a huge scale as the Persians? across highly different Cultures?"Heraldry (of a sort), national symbols, horns and standards, flag signals can all be demonstrated for the Greeks as well. I would rather suggest that while the organizational capability of the Persians may be understated, so is that of the Greeks (largely and often both are understated to the benefit of Philip and Alexander…)."
The clear officer structure is attested to by Herodotus and Xenophon. Not to mention the fact that words like hazarapatis and satapatis actually meaning commander of however many denote the clear decimal system of organisation.
The arrest and release of Conon are decisions made on a minor level which i hardly think warrants Royal approval considering the breadth of the empire which must be governed. However all systems have failings, the greeks just as anyone follow suit. The Incessant scheming of Greeks even on the eve of battle (Platea - Athenians) does much to undermine an organised effort.
Lastly the actual use of a full professional standing army places Persian organisation on a higher level than the citizen soldier
Edit: i don't mean to downplay the Macedonians or greeks but the diversity of the Achaemenid forces is clearly far greater. If not for numbers then for the massive difference in cultures I.E. Scythians and Egyptians or Nubians and Carians.
Last edited by rez; May 11, 2006 at 12:52 PM.
Re: Indian faction
I'm sure this topic is about the Indian faction?
And, yes, I don't remember naked Indian warriors, especially women. Indians were one of the most civilized places in the world at that time, in the middle of the Kuru Dynasty, I believe.
Re: Indian faction
I agree. They also had intricate battle formations and elite units. If in doubt just research the Indian epic Mahabarata. This predates Alexanders period and gives details of weapons used, armour, types of units and battle formations.
Re: Indian faction
Civilized doesn't mean they were civilized in the way we, westerners, percieve it. They could still have naked warriors and be civilized.
Re: Indian faction
There is absolutely no record of naked warriors in any book in India (where the oldest language, Sanskrit, was based)
Re: Indian faction
Well obviously they will not be naked, just like the naked fanatics of RTW, and CA probably put them in thier to appeal to the male audience
Most RTW players will probably not know that its ahistorical (and wont care either), and its made by CA, so expect a few fantasy units.
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