Official Abortion thread

[Eric]

Abortion. Why are people debating so about this question? I think that it should be someone's own choice if they want to have the child aborted or not. It's their business and the rest of the world has nothing to do with it. And don't give me no guff about 'murdering babies'. That's just a stupid statement. Murdering a baby is killing a young child outside the womb. That's murdering a baby. Abortion is not murdering babies. And then, there's the whole defense: "If the woman doesn't want the baby, she should just put him or her up for adoption". Right, so a woman is expected to go through all that pain and all that discomfort so another, lazier couple can have their child. Just let the women choose if they want to have a baby or not.

[therussian]

I'm pro choice all the way. A human being should be able to make her own decisions, not be represented by a small (ok, I'm not sure of the actual size) minority.

[Rush Limbaugh]

I'm pro choice all the way.

Does the Fetus get a choice? How about the father? And the mother has the choice of what? Whether or not to kill her unborn child ? Why dont we allow abortion up until the age of 18. That would sure help you keep the kids in line. "One more word and Ill abort you"

[therussian]

Ok, I should clarify. A woman should consult her close friends/family members before actually going forward with the abortion. But in the end, it IS her choice. She is the one having the baby. Not the father.

But I do agree that we should have an age restriction on abortions. Unless in "extreme" circumstances such as rape and such.


And wouldn't this be better in the "Ethos" forum?

[Eric]

I thought The Political Mudpit would be a better place for this being that Abortion has turned into such a Political Issue. I think that's a little stupid, they worry about women having children or not rather than worrying about, say, substance abuse, crime rates, drug use, ect ect.

[RZZZA]

I'm all for abortion. In fact, I think we need to abort 3 people off the top of my head: Martin Lawrence, Tom Cruise and Pat Robertson.

Grab a gun everybody, its an abortion party!




Must....abort...kill....pillage....deeeestroy!

[Scar Face]

Abortion. Why are people debating so about this question? I think that it should be someone's own choice if they want to have the child aborted or not. It's their business and the rest of the world has nothing to do with it. And don't give me no guff about 'murdering babies'. That's just a stupid statement. Murdering a baby is killing a young child outside the womb. That's murdering a baby. Abortion is not murdering babies. And then, there's the whole defense: "If the woman doesn't want the baby, she should just put him or her up for adoption". Right, so a woman is expected to go through all that pain and all that discomfort so another, lazier couple can have their child. Just let the women choose if they want to have a baby or not.

Eric that was stupid. The way you put it you define it as not murdur. But do you acutally think there is any more arguemnt in abortion? No. The arguement is either ''Its not murdur and it's my life'' or ''It is murdur and it's the baby's life'' by refusing to hear the other half your being ignorant and there is no room for debate or discussion.

Anyways. It is murdur just because the baby isn't born doesn't mean it isn't. Doesn't mean it shouldn't have rights. Why should the girl go through all that pain? So it can create another being and give that being hapiness. To say it screws up there life or anything close to that is putting the mother's life above that of a child which IMO is pathatic. A child is worth more then BOTH her parents. So yes Abortion is murdur. And yes she should go through that pain if she is alrdy pregneant.

EDIT: If anything the father should have a choice. I know hands on some fathers who wanted the baby and because the mom didn't the baby got the blade. How pathatic and selfish is that? You are refusing to go 9 months and endure pain for another being? Atleast you originally had a half assed arguement that the baby's life would suck and yours (Which IMO is not a good arguement) but now you have none except your selfish. Taking the baby's life as well as the Father's chance of being a dad. Just caught something on eric's post. Umm those that adopt aren't lazy. There infertile, don't be stupid.

Oh and one more thing. Lately Ive realized the younger generation is extremely aganst Abortion (except for the feminists but they aren't people ) so do you think if we held another vote (In Canada or America) who do you think would win this time around? Im not to sure...Abortian is leagl in America right? Anyways im almost excited because it's very possibile that abortion could be made illeagle. **** just rememberd one last thing. My sister's argue that all these baby's going to adoption areas will make alot of Goverment funding go there and we will get bankrupt. This is disputed laughabley easily

1) America and Canada are already in the decifeit and will never repay it. Infact I belive every Country is :laughing:

2) Before abortion was leagle have you ever heard of large scale Bankruptcy's because of those damn babys? Err NO.

[MaximiIian]

Doesn't mean it shouldn't have rights.

Yes it does. They are not techinically a human yet, thus do not have any rights. Once they exit the womb, then they do have basic human rights,; but until then, no they do not.

And, besides, wouldn't a lower population be less of a strain on the food supply, as well as stem this staggering overpopulation of Terra by these psychotic apes known as "humans"?

[removeduser_426582376423734]

Yes it does. They are not techinically a human yet.

That is entirely dependent upon opinion. Some could say that upon conception, the genes are fixed and thus the human is made. One could say that at 14 days, the primitive streak of life is shown, therefore the foetus is now a human. Or, you could say that the foetus becomes a baby at 24 weeks, at the point of viability. The baby can live outside the womb at this stage.

I wrote an essay on abortion recently, I'll try and dig it up.

EDIT: OK, essay moved here... So, I wrote it a while ago, see what you think...

"Abortion is the unneccessary destruction of life." Do you agree?

I do not agree with the statement for many reasons. Firstly, I believe that life begins at birth, therefore abortion is not the destruction of life, it is the destruction of the foetus that will turn into life. In most circumstances, abortion is a mercy killing, either due to mental illness, or a bad life when it emerges into the world. Therefore, it is unnecessary, for it will be right for the mother, if not the whole family, in the case that the mother is not able to cope with the baby. It is much better, in my opinion, to allow abortions without criticism, so that the prospective mother may abort the foetus officially, with doctors, rather than “backstreet” abortions that were rife before the 1967 Abortion Act. There were 40,000 – 200,000 of these before 1967, and 6000 of these “backstreet” abortees were sent to hospital. Also, I think that the baby is dependent on the mother, through the placenta in the womb and through breast feeding after birth, and this takes over the mother’s life for over a year. It effectively gives the mother no choice; that she has to carry the baby and is condemned to live uncomfortably for months into years. The woman must be allowed to be in control, for she, and the family, take priority. The Church of England said, in the book “General Synod”, that sometimes abortion is the “lesser of two evils”, and can at times be allowed, under very strict circumstances – there must either be grave risk to the mother, the child, or the pregnancy is due to rape.

However, others may disagree by saying that God, in the Bible, gave many references to abortion. For example, in Genesis 1:26-27, it is said that “God made man in His image”, which shows that the human being is a sacred figure, made in the image, therefore with considerable importance to God. In 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 it is said that the body is God’s temple, therefore to abort a foetus is to effectively destroy, or abort, one of God’s temples. In Jeremiah 1:5, it says that God himself created man, and took time to get to know the person. Therefore, abortion would be the act of wasting God’s time in “knitting together” the foetus “in his mother’s womb”. It also says that every human has a purpose; for it says that “before born” God “set you apart” from every other human. The Roman Catholic Church, in the books “Casti Connubii” and “Evangelium Vitae” condemned abortion, by saying that it is “against God” and it is a “grave moral disorder” to abort a foetus.

In non-Biblical terms, one could say that the child is distinct from the mother. It will itself detach from the mother during birth, and will start its own life, therefore is not totally dependent on the mother. Also, one could say that human life doesn’t begin at birth, but at conception or viability. Conception is when the sperm unites with the ovum, and at this time every possible gene is created, and therefore the fertilized egg has already begun life. Also, viability is the point, usually 24 weeks, when the child may be distinct from the mother, for it can live outside the womb at whatever time it is born. By this time, the heart beat and brain activity can be traces, therefore the baby has obviously begun developing into a human being. Stephen Hawking is a good example of a baby that would have been aborted in today’s world. He has been disabled all of his life, and therefore was eligible for abortion, but he was not aborted and has since become the most advanced mind in the world. This is just one example of why foeti that have mental disorders should not be aborted.

However, I am sure that I am right because abortion can in many ways be completely sanctioned. For example, the pregnancy may be due to rape, where the mother would be having the child of the rapist. Also, the mother may have to die to allow the baby to be born, and the choice of life and death is in the hands of the mother.

Merged double post-

[Hub'ite]

Here's something for you. If you don't want to have a baby then don't have SEX. Its that easy. Keep your legs together. What you said about lazy couples was really ignorant. Ever heard of women who CAN'T have babies? Some women physically aren't able to have children so they have to adopt. Abortion is murder. You are denying a human being its right to live. Its sad that no one cares about the baby's CHOICE. Just the dumb slutty women who doesn't want any responsiblity. Oh its just easier to kill my baby than worry about it.

[MaximiIian]

Here's something for you. If you don't want to have a baby then don't have SEX.

Oh, but that's no fun. Deriving pleasure from sex and using as an artistic medium in which we can express emotional feeling for another is what sets us primates (and cetaceans) apart from other animals. We should celebrate our biodiversity, not suppress it.

[therussian]

Then why would the husband marry the woman in the first place, if she would do that to him? Hmmm? Usually, when two people marry, they know each other very well, and love each other very much. Enough for the woman to go through at least one birth.

Unfortunately, those types of couples are quickly diminishing in this world of ours.

[RusskiSoldat]

Here's something for you. If you don't want to have a baby then don't have SEX.

Or wear a condom at least.
Anyway, I'm anti abortion for Russia because we have a loss of population as well as a high abortion rate, and when you put those two together I think it's obvious what should be done.

[Justinian]

Abortion. Why are people debating so about this question? I think that it should be someone's own choice if they want to have the child aborted or not. It's their business and the rest of the world has nothing to do with it. And don't give me no guff about 'murdering babies'. That's just a stupid statement. Murdering a baby is killing a young child outside the womb. That's murdering a baby. Abortion is not murdering babies. And then, there's the whole defense: "If the woman doesn't want the baby, she should just put him or her up for adoption". Right, so a woman is expected to go through all that pain and all that discomfort so another, lazier couple can have their child. Just let the women choose if they want to have a baby or not.

Let us disect this line by line.

I think that it should be someone's own choice if they want to have the child aborted or not.

Really? So, is it a parent's own choice whether or not to have their one day old baby murdered? No, it isn't, and killing a newborn would put you in jail. However, am I supposed to believe that a day BEFORE birth, they can be killed and it is not murder? One day matters so much to you people, doesn't it?

And don't give me no guff about 'murdering babies'. That's just a stupid statement. Murdering a baby is killing a young child outside the womb. That's murdering a baby.

Don't give me no guff about 'not murdering babies'. That's just a stupid statement. Murdering a baby is killing a developing human after it has a heart beat and brain waves, at which point it is medically HUMAN. That's murdering a baby.

"If the woman doesn't want the baby, she should just put him or her up for adoption". Right, so a woman is expected to go through all that pain and all that discomfort so another, lazier couple can have their child

I actually laughed loudly at this. Almost everyone who gets an abortion is getting one because they are too irresponsible and downright STUPID to have a child, thus they figure the easy way out is to kill it. "Lazier couple"? Lazier? I take extreme offense to this, sir, because the lazy little teenager who kills their baby so they don't have to worry about it, that teenager can be counted as lazy, not the people who either cannot have a child, or are taking a child into their home out of the goodness of their heart.

Just let the women choose if they want to have a baby or not.

How about knock some sense into her heads first? "When you do the ficky-ficky, take your pilly-pillies". It's their own damn fault if they had a baby because they were careless.

You, sir, see this issue through the rosy glass of wishful thinking. Anyone who actually stops and CONSIDERS the matter will be forced to conclude abortion after at most a month of pregnancy is ending a human life, which is classified in most countries as murder; that the argument for abortion, "it's the woman's right to choose" is complete fallacy as we are not generally given leave to kill whoever inconveniences us; and that abortion is only supported because it's the easiest way to cancel out your own mistakes.

Good day.

[Talbaz]

didn't know but you guyz need some fact in here so am coming along and add some fact here ( i just read a article about this)

the pro-life people are in the minority a majority of america is pro choice but, abortion rate is going down in america due to a number of factors like good old sex ed that is finally working. one reason mainly is because of death threats on the doctor and then they close there pratice and stuff so if harder to get a abortion thus leading to less people being able to get them.
a majority of the people and "try" to get abortion are the Poor who can afford that baby or the medical care to have it due to the above and the fact they can't afford it now we are getting more poor baby (good job us)
i can't rember anything else from the article off hand at this time so i move on to my opinions.

space so you can see the divide

am pro-chioce why because 1. every should have a choice if what democary is about and now that crap about killing the baby there a problem there a big one that most people forget the baby is not a human at the time the sperm meets the egg at that time it's call a zygote(a bunch of stems cells you can compare this to a similar number of fat cells i belif don't take my word on it) not a emybrao and it not called a fetus till like the last 3 months i think but if someone could look it up and tell me that would help alot. there a major difference there then in MOST STATES they have laws that state that the person has to go to preabortion conuicling and have a waiting period this can sometimes make the time frame(frist 3 months) very hard to get one in. now am not saying the 3 month law is a bad thing i think that a good law but that at fars as it goes.
2. the issue about the father knowing um yeah i don't think the women needs to tell the man as she is made to if a coming law passes now there a difference here the again most people miss i think that the women should talk to there HUSBAND about it and most would you would think but the law makes the women tell who ever the father is and am sorry thats wrong she shouldn't have to. the teenager should at least have to talk to here parents about it and the teenager should go though concuil for sure before

and some people aren't ready for childer n i had a friend that got pregent and she got a abortion it was really hard on her but she was ready for a kid at that time and she does want kids later on but she had such garduate from high school and her and boyfriend did talk about it and agreed

in closeing it should stay pro-choice it should be there if you don't belif in abortion don't get one easy as that you don't have the right to froce your opinion on to others. but if america is that scraied about it how about fighting for what work we need and could still improve are sexual ed for students and the poor remember don't attack the problem attack the thing that causes the problem.

oh don't know if the brith control pill was in the argument or not but you have to remember that the pill is also use for other thing there a condtion with the ovarys with syst that can form on them and the pill can pervent them froming and cause extreme pain to the person i know two people very close to me that have this condition

[Rush Limbaugh]

the pro-life people are in the minority a majority of america is pro choice

I suppose you can back that up. Even if its right it doesnt mean its the correct position.

abortion rate is going down in america due to a number of factors like good old sex ed that is finally working

Thats part of the reason.

The relative contributions of changes in the proportion of adolescent women who have ever had sex and the pregnancy rate among those who are sexually experienced can be estimated by calculating what the pregnancy rate would have been if only one of these factors had changed. The analysis assumes that the decline between 1988 and 1995 in the proportion of women aged 15-19 who had ever had intercourse was real, even though it was not statistically significant. These calculations indicate that roughly one-fourth of the drop in the teenage pregnancy rate between 1988 and 1995 resulted from increased abstinence (i.e., a decline in the proportion of young women who had had sex), and approximately three-fourths from decreased pregnancy rates among sexually experienced teenagers (see box below).24

So three quarters from other things and 25% from abstinance,

What really amazes me is that we still have so many more unwanted pregnancies and abortions today than when I was growing up. Back before there was ex ed and the pill.

[Talbaz]

ok rush i make this eay for you as i back this up there should be 3 groups
hardcore pro-life the pro-choice/prolife depending and the hardcore pro-choice and the poll in this artilice from december of 2005 states that the majority of people fall in the 2nd two groups so yes the 1st group is in the minority. it really depends on how you ask the question

rember lets not attack the problem lets attack what cause the problem improve sex ed for young and poor

edit:oh no there most likely less over all rush it such you didn't hear about because abortion were call back ally abortion this is where you when to the locol auto shop and got abortion or you use a hanger so you such didn't hear about it

edit and rush the 25% thingie that other 75% is sex ed because you know good sex ed tells you if you are going to do how to do it safely

[Rush Limbaugh]

hardcore pro-life the pro-choice/prolife depending and the hardcore pro-choice and the poll in this artilice from december of 2005 states that the majority of people fall in the 2nd two groups so yes the 1st group is in the minority. it really depends on how you ask the question

As one who does polling for a living I can tell you the part in bold says it all. I for instance am formly pro life. However I am not about to make abortion illegal so I fit in the middle like most americans. The two radical points opf view are in reality the minority. Its always the case. Most people fall in the middle on any issue.

[RusskiSoldat]

However, am I supposed to believe that a day BEFORE birth, they can be killed and it is not murder?

A day befor birth it is not allowed either.
I believe there is a certain time period after which it's no longer legal.

[Justinian]

A day befor birth it is not allowed either.
I believe there is a certain time period after which it's no longer legal.

Doesn't matter, I'm addressing his notion that it's only murder out of the womb. Besides, partial-birth abortion was perfectly legal until Bush came along.

Want to know something about your precious abortion Eric? This is what partial-birth abortion is, which by your logic is fine and dandy.

"an abortion in which a physician delivers an unborn child's body until only the head remains inside the womb, punctures the back of the child's skull with a sharp instrument, and sucks the child's brains out before completing delivery of the dead infant."

Humane.