Asphalt Roads to Combat IEDs and Mines

[PointOfViewGun]

Not sure where to put this.

I was, mostly still am, watching Bomb Patrol: Afghanistan. Humvee provides a substantial cover against IEDs and mines but they're not much of a use when troops need to walk in streets of a village. One wrong step and boom. A hard asphalt road could eliminate that. It would be very hard for Taliban to install bombs and much easier for soldiers to spot tempered ground points. Troops could spend more time fighting Taliban instead of eliminating such bombs.

How effective could it be?

[Captain Jin]

It is effective. Obviously they can still dig up asphalt. The insurgents did that in Iraq, but it's more time consuming and opens them up to being vulnerable while they're trying to emplace the IED. The issue comes with the fact that it's expensive to build roads, but also the fact that whenever we start a civil affairs project in Afghanistan we have to navigate a very irritating and complex tribal structure. You had to figure out what tribe is in the area, then you have to contract their personnel to do the work so you can bring jobs to the area. But then if the road continues into an area that has a tribe that isn't friendly to the one that was building the original road you run into friction points. We've already read several case studies so far on Army units trying to do this with Kandahar based construction companies who then either just quit the project when they got into these more unfriendly zones, or the Army themselves were attacked.

In one specific case the Army was trying to build a road through an isolated valley in order to bring economic progress to the area; well the people that lived there didn't want that because the road would connect them with a rival tribe to their south. They were both Pashtun, but the defining characteristic between the two was how they grew their crops. One group required more land for their method to work, so the first group was worried the road would allow that group to spread into their lands easily. So they manipulated local Taliban militants and actually mustered a very large force, attacked, and nearly overran the Army outpost that was in the area. The Army left the AO after that and the road was never finished. Mainly this happened because mission planners had not conducted the appropriate amount of analyses on the cultural landscape in their AO before initiating things, but admittedly the Pashtuns are very, very frustrating to deal with. So many, many, many projects are hampered or slowed greatly by the little cultural and tribal nuances that you have to contend with. We've had major issues where we've approached a civil affairs project with our western mindset as in "This will help people, allow the area to prospers" etc., only to have it blow up in our faces because we didn't anticipate something or there was something we didn't fully understand about the tribe in the area.

[Visna]

Not sure where to put this.

I was, mostly still am, watching Bomb Patrol: Afghanistan. Humvee provides a substantial cover against IEDs and mines but they're not much of a use when troops need to walk in streets of a village. One wrong step and boom. A hard asphalt road could eliminate that. It would be very hard for Taliban to install bombs and much easier for soldiers to spot tempered ground points. Troops could spend more time fighting Taliban instead of eliminating such bombs.

How effective could it be?

I'm not an expert, but that doesn't sound like it could work. First of all, we would be talking a quite substantial amount of asphalt. In Iraq, where asphalt roads didn't prevent IED's from becoming a major threat, the bombs could be high tech and could thus be easier counted with high tech. In Afghanistan bombs can be made from fertiliser in a plastic jug and a simple wire.
Bomb sniffing mice or dogs could hold me more promise, methinks.

[PointOfViewGun]

I'm not an expert, but that doesn't sound like it could work. First of all, we would be talking a quite substantial amount of asphalt. In Iraq, where asphalt roads didn't prevent IED's from becoming a major threat, the bombs could be high tech and could thus be easier counted with high tech. In Afghanistan bombs can be made from fertiliser in a plastic jug and a simple wire.
Bomb sniffing mice or dogs could hold me more promise, methinks.

An asphalt road makes spotting of such bombs much easier as the troops can easily spot the tempered parts on the road. Taliban can dig in but they can't cover it with asphalt of concrete again. This doesn't eliminate roadside bombs but it does eliminate greatly the mines and IEDs.

[hellheaven1987]

It depends; during Soviet-Afghanistan War it seems that Mujaheddins had no problem to dig up asphalt road and put AT mine under the road.

[Captain Jin]

There is a layered approach to countering IEDs. The dogs only hold one layer of that defence. There's differences between Iraq and Afghanistan in the explosives employed. Iraq was military grade munitions, artillery shells and the like being emplaced. This meant that even if it was put under asphalt the explosion was enough to cause severe damage to vehicles and personnel, not to mention the fact that these munitions were spewing out shrapnel. But in Afghanistan this is not the case. There is not an abundance of excess munitions like in Iraq; therefore the more common device is homemade explosives in plastic jugs, just as you mentioned, usually operating on a victim initiated system (ie a pressure pad with low metallic signature). So asphalt immediately takes away their primary explosive means because HME doesn't have the appropriate properties to get through it. That's why as a general rule, asphalt roads are generally safer than other areas.

It depends; during Soviet-Afghanistan War it seems that Mujaheddins had no problem to dig up asphalt road and put AT mine under the road.

The Taliban doesn't have the same resources that the Muj did.

[hellheaven1987]

The Taliban doesn't have the same resources that the Muj did.

That really depends now if Pakistan government really wants to assist Taliban or not, especially both sides just reached a peace agreement a few weeks ago.

[PointOfViewGun]

How about concrete roads?

[Rolling Thunder]

How about concrete roads?

They tend to crack when subject to high levels of heat and then rapid cooling - which happens every night in a desert. They're also a nightmare to maintain.

[Captain Jin]

Anything that makes it more time consuming for the emplacement of the IED is going to be a benefit because it means that it will take longer for the person putting it in to actually do it. In Iraq they did it in teams. One person would come up, break down some asphalt, the next would come in and try to dig the hole, and finally the last one would try to come in and emplace the IED itself. This would happen over a few hours, or a few days so that each phase of the IED emplacement would take a minimal amount of time and you had different people doing different things. It was effective, but still we found ways to counter it which I won't discuss. Nevertheless the issue, as stated, in Afghanistan, is that there are unimproved roads which makes emplacing an IED much faster. They use the same phased approach usually, and are able to put the stuff in much faster as a result of the material they are digging into. Also, obviously the more hard the surface that easier it is it to notice something is amiss, which, while they can hide some signs in an asphalt road it is much harder to do.

That really depends now if Pakistan government really wants to assist Taliban or not, especially both sides just reached a peace agreement a few weeks ago.

Yes, but the simple fact is that we aren't seeing anywhere near the same level of equipment, weapons, munitions and so forth being used by the Taliban as was being used by the Muj. Remember that the Muj had quite a bit of international support, whereas the Taliban does not. So AT mines, as an example, are not as prevalent as they were in the Soviet war.

[Sphere]

How about concrete roads?

Yes, just head down to the local ready-mix plant. /sarcasm

Asphalt is slightly more feasible as it remains workable as long as you can keep it hot, but still it is rather far fetched for the all remote regions of Afghanistan.

I've managed construction in under-developed parts of the middle-east and it is completely different animal than just building something in the US. Everything you need has to be shipped in, fuel, equipment, materials, food, housing etc. But things like asphalt and concrete need local plants, so you can spend a year just trying to set up an asphalt/concrete plant for a local project, let alone a country wide network of roads.

The reason Haliburton/Bechtel etc. make a lot of money is because nobody else can physically do what they do in these remote places.

[PointOfViewGun]

It's not impossible to ship in necessary equipment and materials and it's not impossible to start such an industry in Kabul and let it spread gradually with proper roads representing more peaceful and prosperous regions. Nobody proposed that it would be done over-night. NATO have been in Afghanistan for the past decade and they're probably gonna be there for a lot longer.

[Sphere]

It's not impossible to ship in necessary equipment and materials and it's not impossible to start such an industry in Kabul and let it spread gradually with proper roads representing more peaceful and prosperous regions. Nobody proposed that it would be done over-night. NATO have been in Afghanistan for the past decade and they're probably gonna be there for a lot longer.

I'm all for it, more money for me.

I just trying to get across the idea that doing any sort of construction in these area's is a major undertaking as all the underlying societal infrastructure we take for granite doesn't exist. No labor pool, no existing surveys, no electricity, no suppliers, no water, no housing, no equipment, no security etc. I think if all that was in place, the IED problem would already be solved by having a functioning society.

[PointOfViewGun]

I'm all for it, more money for me.

I just trying to get across the idea that doing any sort of construction in these area's is a major undertaking as all the underlying societal infrastructure we take for granite doesn't exist. No labor pool, no existing surveys, no electricity, no suppliers, no water, no housing, no equipment, no security etc. I think if all that was in place, the IED problem would already be solved by having a functioning society.

It's no piece of cake.

Afghanistan needs a strong central government first. It can only establish that through infrastructure works. US can get the required materials and labor from states who are refusing to send combat troops. Piece by piece they can set up factories and teach people into working in them.

[DarthLazy]

Roadside bombs still worked with asphalt, but hey this is Pakistan, everything works here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Karachi_bombing

[conon394]

They tend to crack when subject to high levels of heat and then rapid cooling - which happens every night in a desert. They're also a nightmare to maintain.

Depends on how you make them

[Gumpfendorfer]

Even if all goes well, there's the problem of maintenance for which their is hardly any budget, nor the manpower. The insurgency also tends to use roads to move faster around in Afghanistan, it actually spreads around the main arteries first. Roads become a serious battle ground: http://aan-afghanistan.com/index.asp?id=2345 It's a double edged sword.

[Rolling Thunder]

Depends on how you make them

Engineers always say that.

[MathiasOfAthens]

We are no longer in Iraq and Afghanistan is widen down. And even if we were IEDs can still be hidden on Asphalt roads. Iraqi streets are not very wide and in the cities you might find trash or rubbish along the sides where bombs can be hidden. Roads in Afghanistan are not flat ground like streets in America. They often have gullies and bushes along the side of them where bombs can be easily hidden. This is in the rural areas. The cities are similar to iraqi cities in some ways. The streets can be narrow and rubbish is along the side of them, IEDs can be hidden easily. Changing the material of the roads wont eliminate IEDs.

Depends on how you make them

Which would cost more money to construct and mantain... money which Iraq does not even possess.

Why should Iraq waste money on asphalt roads for the purpose of eliminating IEDs when IEDs can still be hidden.

[PointOfViewGun]

My point was that you can cover up a dirt road very easily while if an asphalt or concrete road would show any tempered spot making it easy for soldiers to point out possible IED locations.