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  1. #1
    Siblesz's Avatar I say it's coming......
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    Default While Europe Slept

    While Europe Slept, by Bruce Bawer

    Anyone read this book yet? Although slightly slanted towards the libertarian right, and although mainly expressing American views on the issue, this book does a remarkable job at demontrating some of the key problems that Europe will face in the coming years. It is a shocking depiction of the failure of integration in the cultural landscape of Europe, a thorough analysis of the European infrastructure of politics and its power-gripping "social elite", and a reminder of how crucial this time of ours is in respect to the retention of the present "democratic system" in contrast to the prospects of a future European Jihad or a Weimar-style reactionary dictatorship.

    I have a few objections to it centered mainly on the author's views of what should be done and some of his opinions on European and American problems. But this book is simply brilliant for the information that it provides to the reader and for the accurate assessment which draws the conclusion that Europe will collapse by itself in the coming decades if the strategy of Muslim appeasement and anti-Americanist dogma continues to be the priority of Western European institutions and media.

    I wrote an an essay on the issue right after the riots in France in November, and my attitude towards the crisis reflects the reactionary side of the opinion of this book. Here it is:

    We're gonna see a lot of more riots like this in the future... The state can no longer provide for a people who have grown unappreciative of their commodities and standards of living in France and who do not fit in the scope of French society. Consequently, these groups are growing increasingly rebellious and militant.

    Why do these rebels think that they have it so bad? The rioters in France live in a paternalist society in which the people expect the state to provide them with nearly everything, including work, education, and welfare. France cannot cope with this. While it is true that immigrants have less chance of success in society than the French themselves, these immigrants don't have it nearly as bad as back home in North Africa. Maybe they should experience a few years back in Tunisia and Algeria to see if they have it so bad after all.

    But it's easy to just stand there and say that these immigrants should just go back home. There is a reason why most of the rioters are young, normally teenagers and people in their early 20s, and Muslim in heritage. The rioters are immigrants in heritage, but French from birth. This conflict of identity creates revolt. These groups are disenfranchized by French society and at the same time from their own North African heritage itself. Making things worse, France cannot reform the system through suppression, having all of the eyes of the world focussed on their handling of the conflict.

    The media also gives us a reason that does not serve reality well. The media states that these youths are rebelling in protest at the state's constriction of their rights and freedoms. But rather than centered on a fight for freedom, the superficial reasons always tend to end up becoming economical rather than social. The social structure of a country is greatly impacted by its economic counterpart, therefore economy is almost always the cover root of a civil conflict. As many know, France is not economically stable or successful during these times. Unemployment is rampant, especially among the immigrant minorities, the E.U. does not allow France to fully manage or reform its economy in order to step out of this abyss, and the state is increasingly beaurocratic and concerns itself more with farming and tourism than with the havoc pertinent to the slums of Paris and other urban centers in France.

    The cause of the riots in Paris is pretty simple. Mix a flawed welfare system, an enormous unemployed workforce, a fervent and radical group of desultory Muslim youths, large areas of urban constriction with low standards of living, and voila!

    Sadly enough, poverty and rebellious attitudes in Muslims are not only pertinent to France. The riots will spread. Germany, Spain, Italy, and the Netherlands will soon suffer riots of similar scale. A crisis of integration is at play here. Europe seems to hide behind their tolerance of Muslims, but only superficially. As immigrants continue to wreck havoc and the cultural divide between Western Europe and Islam is becoming apparent, the native populace of Europe is growing tiresome of the immigration problem, and as such, are seeking alternative means to deal with the issue.

    This looks more like a culture war than a war of ideologies.... But lets see how the riots develop. The French revolution started out as a plea for economic and institutional reform and developed into a bloody civil war that destabilized the whole of Europe and set France decades back in time. The past may repeat itself. Take caution, France.
    It's chilling to consider the scenario that by 2030, Europe will either become a conglomerate of either Islamic or right-wing dictatorial states. The middle ground is quickly dissolving as the tolerance of many in Europe is being replaced by more a more militant and populist reaction. What are your views on the issue, especially our European members? And please consider reading the book, because although I disagree with some of the author's ideologies, the content in itself is worth the read.
    Last edited by Siblesz; May 04, 2006 at 11:56 PM.
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  2. #2
    Gaius Baltar's Avatar Old gods die hard
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    Default Re: While Europe Slept

    Yes, a very interesting essay. I will take time out to read it. Are you aware of any "non-American" (beware the brackets, the brackets are coming!!!) published articles on this subject?

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    Siblesz's Avatar I say it's coming......
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    Default Re: While Europe Slept

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius Baltar
    Yes, a very interesting essay. I will take time out to read it. Are you aware of any "non-American" (beware the brackets, the brackets are coming!!!) published articles on this subject?
    No, but an objective eye from someone who's not European seems more accurate than the opinion of someone who is European and as such may suffer from European cultural and political bias. The same might be true for Bawer on the basis that he is an American and as such may suffer anti-Europe sentiment, but if you read the book, this opinion is only slightly pertinent. Athough his writings are filtered through some American ideologies, he suffers little identity struggle and as such can write objectively. In the end, the problem that he presents in his book comes out as impartial and insightful. The solutions, however, seem a bit distant to reality.

    This sounds really interesting. How does the book say that the Europeans will react to the youthful muslim unrest? Will they eventually get fed up with Muslim immigrant and attempt to close their borders or even expel them? Will they attempt to reform their current welfare state as countries like France and Germany are currently doing? How does the book say this situation will turn out?
    He presents the case that Europe will reach (or already has reached) a "Weimar moment" in which the population will choose a fascist-styled dictatoriship to deal with the Muslim problem (or the Muslim population will take over and establish sharia-law across the land). It's an "eat or be eaten" situation. This is not the segment that I object to. I object to the fact that he seems to think that there is an alternative solution to the problem through American-styled integration, more constriction of rights, and welfare reform, when I sincerely think that there is none.
    Last edited by Siblesz; May 04, 2006 at 06:21 PM.
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    Default Re: While Europe Slept

    Quote Originally Posted by Siblesz
    It's chilling to consider the scenario that by 2030, Europe will either become a conglomerate of either Islamic or right-wing dictatorial states. The middle ground is quickly dissolving as the tolerance of many in Europe is being replaced by more a more militant and populist reaction. What are your views on the issue, especially our European members? And please consider reading the book, because although I disagree with some of the author's ideologies, the content in itself is worth the read.
    conflict is natural, and its the natural way of getting rid of something bad - from the smallist organisms inside your body to the massive nations on earth.

    theres only so far diplomacy can go.

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    IamthePope's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: While Europe Slept

    Quote Originally Posted by Siblesz
    [URL=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385514727/002-8706305-6836014?v=glance&n=283155]It's chilling to consider the scenario that by 2030, Europe will either become a conglomerate of either Islamic or right-wing dictatorial states. The middle ground is quickly dissolving as the tolerance of many in Europe is being replaced by more a more militant and populist reaction. What are your views on the issue, especially our European members? And please consider reading the book, because although I disagree with some of the author's ideologies, the content in itself is worth the read.
    This sounds really interesting. How does the book say that the Europeans will react to the youthful muslim unrest? Will they eventually get fed up with Muslim immigrant and attempt to close their borders or even expel them? Will they attempt to reform their current welfare state as countries like France and Germany are currently doing? How does the book say this situation will turn out?

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    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: While Europe Slept

    Quote Originally Posted by Siblesz
    What are your views on the issue, especially our European members?
    Sorry Sib, but I think you are completely wrong about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Siblesz
    No, but an objective eye from someone who's not European seems more accurate than the opinion of someone who is European and as such may suffer from European cultural and political bias.
    I agree that sometimes an outsider can have a better insight, but I think this particular outsider is very biased and doesn't know what he is talking about (has he even been to Europe?)

    The first mistake he makes is describing the rioters in France as muslims, this is simply not true.
    People from ALL ethnics and religion were rioting, not just muslims.
    To be more specific: the rioters were young people from the ghetto's.
    Now if you look at who actually lives in the French ghetto's you wil see that it's a majority muslims, and so it's only natural that the majority of rioters were also muslims. (ie: the percentage muslim rioters = percentage muslim people in ghetto)

    This mistake made him beleive that those riots were about religion, but they aren't (trust me: they REALY aren't).
    What were they about?
    Poverty, very simple.
    And to be more specific: poverty amongst young people who have NO chance to get out of poverty no matter how good they do at school and no matter how nice they behave.

    They key problem is: NOBODY wil hire people from the ghettos.
    If you solicitate for a job you have to tell them your adress, and employers simply read your adress and trash your letter, they don't even read it.
    You can be a cum laude graduate at a high profile university, but it won't help you because your adress makes any degree worthless.

    Those people are frustrated because they don't get an opportunity in life, because they are trapped in poverty, not because they think they should get a bigger government handout or because they have religious frustrations.
    ALL THEY WANT IS TO GET INVIDED FOR A JOB INTERVIEW.

    And to think this wil just copy to the rest of Europe shows how little this guy knows about Europe.
    Europe isn't a uniform entity, there are many different countries and the social situation is different in all of them.
    Last edited by Erik; May 04, 2006 at 08:49 PM.



  7. #7
    Siblesz's Avatar I say it's coming......
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    Default Re: While Europe Slept

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik
    Sorry Sib, but I think you are completely wrong about this.
    Great, but for what reasons?
    Hypocrisy is the foundation of sin.

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    Default Re: While Europe Slept

    Quote Originally Posted by Siblesz
    Great, but for what reasons?
    Sorry, I posted that line and then edited in the rest of my post.
    This makes it easier for me to quote you twice, and I didn't expect you to relpy so soon.



  9. #9
    Siblesz's Avatar I say it's coming......
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    Default Re: While Europe Slept

    Well, you're quoting my essay, not the author's essay... just a little reminder.

    I agree that sometimes an outsider can have a better insight, but I think this particular outsider is very biased and doesn't know what he is talking about (has he even been to Europe?)
    The author himself has lived in Europe since 1997, having lived in the Netherlands for 3 years, and then in Norway til' the present.

    The first mistake he makes is describing the rioters in France as muslims, this is simply not true. People from ALL ethnics and religion were rioting, not just muslims.
    To be more specific: the rioters were young people from the ghetto's.
    Now if you look at who actually lives in the French ghetto's you wil see that it's a majority muslims, and so it's only natural that the majority of rioters were also muslims. (ie: the percentage muslim rioters = percentage muslim people in ghetto)
    The majority were Muslim, meaning most of the conflict was spearheded by French Muslims and was incited by the death of the two Muslim youths.

    This mistake made him beleive that those riots were about religion, but they aren't (trust me: they REALY aren't).
    What were they about?
    Poverty, very simple.
    And to be more specific: poverty amongst young people who have NO chance to get out of poverty no matter how good they do at school and no matter how nice they behave.
    I explicitly mentioned that in my essay.

    They key problem is: NOBODY wil hire people from the ghettos.
    If you solicitate for a job you have to tell them your adress, and employers simply read your adress and trash your letter, they don't even read it.
    You can be a cum laude graduate at a high profile university, but it won't help you because your adress makes any degree worthless.
    It is a combination of the difficulties of having jobs in the ghettos, reinforced with the unwillingness of French natives to hire mostly uneducated Muslim people from the ghettos.

    Those people are frustrated because they don't get an opportunity in life, because they are trapped in poverty, not because they think they should get a bigger government handout or because they have religious frustrations.
    ALL THEY WANT IS TO GET INVIDED FOR A JOB INTERVIEW.
    Not true... you paint a humanistic approach, and while half of it is true, the other half which you fail to mention is that the riots in France were not for unfair job opportunities (unless you are talking about the recent one, and not the one in November), but about the anger of the Parisian Muslim community (and after a few more days, the French Muslim community) after two Muslim youths died of electrocution when they attempted to hide from the police. The ensuing riots weren't about jobs. They were about the frustration of immigrants from living in poverty, the inability of the government to do anything about it, and about the increasing militant cultural movement that sparked the violent riots in the first place. The cultural divide is self-evident. I don't need to point it out in this sea of recent events. You just have to admit to yourself that there IS a cultural divide, and that it needs to be addressed at one point or another, especially when 20% of children in Europe are Muslim, and when the birth rate of native Europeans is decreasing at a fast rate while those of Muslim immigrants is exploding.

    And to think this wil just copy to the rest of Europe shows how little this guy knows about Europe.
    Europe isn't a uniform entity, there are many different countries and the social situation is different in all of them.
    You're right, Europeans are very different from one nation to another, but while natives react differently to different issues, the immigrants that arrive and stay in Europe are experiencing the same things as they struggle to integrate and as they continue to keep to themselves in ghettos. They retain their past cultures, and in many cases, they keep their countries' brutal social practices, like forced marriage, female castration, and murders in the name of family honor.

    Native Europeans do not like to associate themselves with immigrants, and as the book suggests, they practice a policy of pillarization in which the natives and the immigrants are separated into distinct areas that isolate immigrants from the reach of social change, and stops them from integrating into European society. As such, the policy restricts immigrants from trying to reform their thinking and festers dangerous hot spots of radical Islam that have been continually witnessed in many of France's, England's, the Netherland's, Norway's, Sweden's, Spain's, and Germany's ghettos. These hot spots are the cause of many of Europe's strifes in the past two years, the most important of which are the bombings in London and Madrid, and the riots in France.
    Last edited by Siblesz; May 04, 2006 at 09:31 PM.
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  10. #10
    Garbarsardar's Avatar Et Slot i et slot
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    Default Re: While Europe Slept

    The cause of the riots in Paris is pretty simple. Mix a flawed welfare system, an enormous unemployed workforce, a fervent and radical group of desultory Muslim youths, large areas of urban constriction with low standards of living, and voila!
    I like the irony in this phrase Sib!

    Now, just remember that a general explanation as the one you attempt here should take into account French modern history; this way it will be possible to answer the questions:

    What led to the unrest of 1986 and 1991 in the same suburbs (mostly)?
    Why the unrest were more generalised?
    Why not Belgium or any other country with similar migration influx?

    Let me offer you Behzad Yaghmaian, an Iranian-born author and professor living in the United States who spent two years traveling in the Middle East and Europe following migrants from Muslim countries.

    In my opinion, at the heart of the riots in France are France's post-colonial and migration policy and the failure of the republic to deliver to the public liberty, fraternity and equality. But similar problems exist across Europe, actually. There is a migration crisis in Europe that has been growing extensively in the past few years. And sooner or later there's a potential and possibility of same types of riots and uprising occurring in different places.

    In France, what we have been seeing is a combination of class, ethnicity, race and religion and cultural dimensions that gave rise to the riots that we have seen now. Of course, the comments by the Interior Minister ignited the riots, but there were deep-rooted causes that brought about the continuation of the riots: The alienation of the youth, the -- France has continued to look at the post-colonial subjects as colonial subjects. That is, migrants from Algeria and other parts of Africa that were controlled by France are still considered as non-French, although they carry French documents, and that is reflected in the way they are treated economically, socially and politically.

    The elders in the communities are tired. Their time is over. What matters is the young people -- 17, 18, 20 -- they have their whole future ahead of them, and what they have seen is the impossibility of living under these post-colonial subjective conditions, so they want to make a point. In fact, what is happening, the riots are a cry to be heard. They want to be heard. They want to tell the world that they exist and what their conditions are. In the past ten-fifteen years, there has no way for them to be heard. They're using this to echo their voice, to tell that they want a difference.

    They want to become French. They are French, but they want to be treated as French. They want not to be discriminated because of being Muslim. That is, they don't want their Islam and the religion to be used as a pretext for discrimination. And in many ways, it’s stigmatization that is very hurtful, to be picked up by the police, to be harassed by the police, to be looked at by the public in a very different way and suspicious way.

    It's impossible to see the crisis in Algeria today, the crisis in France today, without going back to the War of Independence, which lasted from between 1954 and 1962, which eventually gave Algeria not freedom in the democratic sense, but freedom from imperialism, from colonialism. And you've got to realize that the wounds of that war were never healed. The Algerians who fought for the French, the Harki, were never forgiven by the Algerian government or people, the pieds-noirs, the vast number of French colonial people who lived in Algeria, who regard it as their home, whose parents and grandparents were born there. By the way, you keep calling it a French colony. The French, of course, regard it as “France metropolitaine.” It was part of metropolitan France, but the Algerian “natives,” quote/unquote, didn't have equal rights. The pieds-noirs have never forgiven the Algerians for throwing them out, effectively, of the country.

    President Chirac served in Algeria and won medals for his service, as General Ariel Sharon, now Prime Minister of Israel, constantly points out to him. Most of the older French leaders or most of the old statesmen of France did have a role in the Algerian war. What's interesting about France is that the French government's attitude towards war is quite different from the British or American, because unlike the U.S. administration and the titchy little administration of our own dear Mr. Blair, many French politicians served in Algeria and have seen war, which the Bush administration has either not done or chosen not to do and which the Blair administration is too young to have done. So you do have in France a great fear of war and violence. Mr. Sarkozy, I believe, has not seen war, which is why he's prepared to use these disgusting phrases like “racaille” -- “scum,” translated into English -- about the rioters, when quite clearly there are major problems here that need to be addressed, and calling people scum only overheats these problems. I think Mr. Sarkozy will be thrown to the wolves, by the way, because French governments always give in to violence, without exception. Always. And I think Mr. Sarkozy will be set out to be put out to dry and forgotten because of this.
    Source

    So, I agree with the essential meaning of your phrase:t is much more complicated than a culture clash.

  11. #11
    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: While Europe Slept

    Quote Originally Posted by Siblesz
    Well, you're quoting my essay, not the author's essay... just a little reminder.
    I know.

    The author himself has lived in Europe since 1997, having lived in the Netherlands for 3 years, and then in Norway til' the present.
    Not an objective outsider then :wink:

    The majority were Muslim, meaning most of the conflict was spearheded by French Muslims and was incited by the death of the two Muslim youths.
    But that doesn't mean the problem was caused by the fact that they were muslim.
    Most of the looters in New Orleans were black, does it mean their skincolour was the cause for the looting?

    Not true... you paint a humanistic approach, and while half of it is true, the other half which you fail to mention is that the riots in France were not for unfair job opportunities (unless you are talking about the recent one, and not the one in November), but about the anger of the Parisian Muslim community (and after, the French Muslim community) after two Muslim youths died of electrocution when they attempted to hide from the police. The ensuing riots weren't about jobs. They were about the frustration of immigrants for living in poverty, the inability of the government to do anything about it, and about the increasing militant cultural movement that sparked the violent riots.

    Then we disagree because I'm convinced those riotes were about jobs.
    The rioters themselves say it is about jobs.

    And what you fail to mention is that those riots had started BEFORE those two kids were killed!
    All it did was intensify and lenghten them.

    Riots like that are very common in France: they happening several times a year.
    But usually they last just a few days, and the media pays hardly any attention to them.
    The october riots were special because they lasted much longer and because the media jomped on them, but to see it as an isolated or new event is wrong.

    You're right, but the immigrants that arrive and stay in Europe are experiencing the same things as they struggle to integrate and keep to themselves in ghettos. Native Europeans do not like to associate themselves with immigrants, and as the book suggests, they practice a policy of pillarization in which the natives and the immigrants are separated into distinct areas that restrict immigrants from integrating into European society.
    From the word "Pillarization" I can tell he did live in the Netherlands.
    Yes, we are a "Pillarized" society, we have been since our independance. (as opposed to a layered society like Brittain)
    But notice that France isn't, their society and the way they treat immigrants is actually very close to the USA.

    But is having a pillarized society a bad thing?
    Maybe, but it has kept our different religious groups from fighting for more than 400 years, so it's strange to assume that it wil suddently cause a conflict now. (The Netherlands was for long the only European country where katholics, protestants, jews and atheists lived together peacefully)
    We don't have ghetto's and immigrants have a good chance to get a job and "move up the pillar".
    And is the alternative, an egalized society, so attractive to live in? I don't think so, I like the fact that we are a collection of different pillars.
    And don't forget that it's France who tries to egalize everything and make everybody "French", and they are the ones with the biggest problems.



  12. #12

    Default Re: While Europe Slept

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik
    I agree that sometimes an outsider can have a better insight, but I think this particular outsider is very biased and doesn't know what he is talking about (has he even been to Europe?)
    So much irony in that comment given your posts about the US, shoe on other foot I guess. Anyway, regardless outsider opinions can be valuable because they can see things you yourself might not see so its helpful even if the author is in your opinion wrong, it only becomes a problem when there is an aura of superority to the comments or lecturing.

    This mistake made him beleive that those riots were about religion, but they aren't (trust me: they REALY aren't).
    What were they about?
    Poverty, very simple.
    And to be more specific: poverty amongst young people who have NO chance to get out of poverty no matter how good they do at school and no matter how nice they behave.
    Its your opinion, alot of people live in poverty who dont riot no? While it maybe wrong for him to blame religion entirely its also equally wrong to blame simply poverty, riots and violent outbreaks like this are generally brought upon by a combination of factors and in that no doubt poverty and religious (ie cultural differences) played a part in it

    Those people are frustrated because they don't get an opportunity in life, because they are trapped in poverty, not because they think they should get a bigger government handout or because they have religious frustrations.
    ALL THEY WANT IS TO GET INVIDED FOR A JOB INTERVIEW.
    And you know this how? Did you talk to them all? Do you know them? You make assertations you cant possibly know for fact.



    I see it like this:
    America has declared a war against the muslim world. (or maybe they declared war on them first, I don't care)
    And Americans desperately want Europe to be on their side.
    But Europe has seen too many religious wars and we are realy not interested in fighting this one.
    So then Americans are trying to SCARE Europe into beleiving that there is some great evil growing in Europe that needs to be wiped out...the evil being Islam of course

    It's 1939 all over again, but now Americans are the Nazi's, and we try to stay neutral again.

    A variety of trolls removed-Garb

    Flame removed-Garb.
    Last edited by Garbarsardar; May 05, 2006 at 09:59 AM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: While Europe Slept

    I actualy remember my parents talking about some Russian (I assume) author predicting more or less the same thing.
    Either the muslims will take over, or the fascist right will rise again in order to deal with the instability caused by the muslims.
    My view on the subject is this: pretty much all of us here will be alive in 2030, unless either all of us are plagued with a series of accidents or there is some cataclysmic event.
    Somethingawful is 12 years old, HG (relatively large forum) is 10 years old.
    In 24 years, chances are we'll be able to post here, so let's settle it then.





  14. #14

    Default Re: While Europe Slept

    The modern European democratic-socialist state is trying to have it both ways: the social security of a socialist state (of the kind formerly in eastern Europe) and the liberty and free market of a capitalist state.
    The government can neither repress dissent (as in the first case) nor can it simply dissassociate itself from said dissent because it directly controls almost all social policy and is therefore responsible for any troubles that come out of it.
    Dangerous combination.





  15. #15

    Default Re: While Europe Slept

    It is very interesting, American author's views on this Europe place. Personally, judging by their works I've never heard of this Europe place, but it sounds very fanciful.

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    Carach's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: While Europe Slept

    bbc news?

    papers?

    i dont have sources i read/watched several months ago to hand just to suddenly spam out like a bolt of lightning ferret.

  17. #17

    Default Re: While Europe Slept

    Quote Originally Posted by Carach
    bbc news?

    papers?

    i dont have sources i read/watched several months ago to hand just to suddenly spam out like a bolt of lightning ferret.
    I'm not going to believe that entire, representative bodies of British muslim communities have demanded Sharia law. Some individuals, no doubt. But you seem to have misunderstood the scale.

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    Default Re: While Europe Slept

    uhh i never said the entire representative bodies of the british muslim communities have demanded sharia law. Read again.

  19. #19

    Default Re: While Europe Slept

    Quote Originally Posted by Carach
    uhh i never said the entire representative bodies of the british muslim communities have demanded sharia law. Read again.
    If that is what you meant then it makes your opinion even weaker if you were actually quoting a few nutjobs.

  20. #20
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Sep 2005
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    Default Re: While Europe Slept

    Not the shariah law which involves stoning only laws that would fit in with our democratic institutions, and only amongst the muslim community.

    Peter

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