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Thread: UPDATED: French Senate Approves Bill On Armenian Genocide By A Vote of 127 to 86

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  1. #1
    Manuel I Komnenos's Avatar Rex Regum
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    Default UPDATED: French Senate Approves Bill On Armenian Genocide By A Vote of 127 to 86

    As a vote in the French Parliament to pass a bill to penalize “Armenian genocide” denial draws closer, Ankara is mobilizing efforts to hinder approval through diplomatic initiatives, calling the attempt to limit freedom of expression “a mentality from the dark ages” and warning that it will recall its ambassador in Paris if the resolution passes.

    “A ban on rejecting Armenian allegations of genocide in France reflects a mentality from the dark ages,” Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu was quoted as saying by the Anatolia news agency, when he spoke on the floor of the Turkish Parliament as his ministry’s 2012 budget was discussed by lawmakers late Wednesday night. Davutoğlu suggested such a perspective would pose a great danger to Europe and that adopting a law that blocks freedom of expression would make France, which prides itself as “the center of the enlightenment,” an advocate of an old-fashioned mentality that blocks alternative ideas.

    Davutoğlu also suggested that passing such a law would contradict the very foundations that France stood upon and would be seen as an attempt to silence history and block a free environment for discussion.

    Turkish Ambassador Tahsin Burcuoğlu will be recalled to Ankara for consultations for an indefinite period of time, Engin Solakoğlu, undersecretary of the Turkish Embassy in Paris, told Anatolia on Thursday. “Passage of the measure will lead to irreparable damage in Turkish-French ties,” Solakoğlu further noted. Ankara suggests that the issue should be left to historians to decide and that parliament should not re-write the histories of other nations.

    Elaborating on a Foreign Ministry meeting on Tuesday, Turkish EU Minister and chief negotiator Egemen Bağış further noted that Turkey had a roadmap ready to facilitate either decision from France. “We are conducting our initiatives at the French Ministry of Foreign and European Affairs. Such bills are short lived,” he was quoted as saying by Anatolia on Wednesday. Bağış also repeated his opinion that the French attempt was a pre-election stunt ahead of next year’s presidential elections in the country, joining Turkish officials in their speculation that President Nicolas Sarkozy is behind the revival of the genocide denial legislation.

    Bağış also argued that French businessmen conducting business in Turkey or with Turks could move against the legislation, approval of which could seriously damage political and economic relations between Turkey and France. France could either vote to drop the legislation as it did back in 2006 when the Senate refused to discuss criminalizing genocide denial, or could adopt it as a law and punish anybody who refuses to acknowledge the killings of Armenians in 1915 during the collapse of the Ottoman Empire as genocide. The punishment set by the legislation includes a one-year prison sentence and a fine of 45,000 euros.

    France passed a law in 2001 that officially recognized the 1915 incidents as “Armenian genocide,” and the French president has recently increased the tone of his criticism, demanding that Turkey recognize the tragic events as such. Turkey however refuses to recognize the killings genocide and says the Armenian estimation of deaths as more than 1 million people is inflated and that the deaths were civil war casualties from all ethnic and religious backgrounds.
    http://www.todayszaman.com/news-2658...oglu-says.html

    Interesting. It seems that after recent fallouts between Turkey and other countries, the French-Turkish relations are also growing tense. Your thoughts? By the way why has France adopted such a pro-Armenian stance recently (I think you all remember the recent visit of Sarkozy in Armenia and his comments over the Armenian Genocide and Turkey's stance)?

  2. #2
    Eofor's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: French Parliament to pass a bill to penalize Armenian genocide denial

    Stupid bill is stupid. People should be allowed to express their opinions no matter how stupid they may be.
    Also flame war between Turks and Armenians in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...

  3. #3
    Treize's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: French Parliament to pass a bill to penalize Armenian genocide denial

    Quote Originally Posted by Concillius View Post
    Stupid bill is stupid.
    Exactly.
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  4. #4
    Babri's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: French Parliament to pass a bill to penalize Armenian genocide denial

    Quote Originally Posted by Concillius View Post
    Stupid bill is stupid. People should be allowed to express their opinions no matter how stupid they may be.
    Also flame war between Turks and Armenians in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...
    Yeah true. These policies go (like this bill or laws against Holocaust denial) against the Freedom of Speech policy of the Western World.

  5. #5
    saglam2000's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: French Parliament to pass a bill to penalize Armenian genocide denial

    France has adopted a pro-anythingthatpissesTurkey off stance recently. I don't see why they should go around recognizing genocides in other countries when they have their own dubious colonial history.
    "The Turks are never trapped. It's the people who surround them who are in trouble."Anthony Hebert

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  6. #6

    Default Re: French Parliament to pass a bill to penalize Armenian genocide denial

    Criminalizing any "genocide denial" is dumb and infringes on freedom of expression.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: French Parliament to pass a bill to penalize Armenian genocide denial

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    Criminalizing any "genocide denial" is dumb and infringes on freedom of expression.

  8. #8
    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: French Parliament to pass a bill to penalize Armenian genocide denial

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    Criminalizing any "genocide denial" is dumb and infringes on freedom of expression.
    You always steal my ****ing point.

  9. #9
    Erebus Pasha's Avatar vezir-i âzam
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    Default Re: French Parliament to pass a bill to penalize Armenian genocide denial

    Although coming at this dispute from different angles both Davutoglu and Egemen Bagis are correct in what they're stating although Davutoglu has gone a little overboard. The only thing I am against is Davutoglu recalling the Turkish ambassador from Paris - those kind of threats will hinder any negotiations between the French and the Turks over this bill and Turkey's image within the EU.

    Bagis' assertion that it may be a pre-election stunt could have some foundation as France does have a sizeable Armenian diaspora. Sarkozy has also been consistently against Turkish integration into the EU since he became French president.
    Last edited by Erebus Pasha; December 15, 2011 at 06:47 PM.

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    Default Re: French Parliament to pass a bill to penalize Armenian genocide denial

    The Sarkozian (no pun intended ) obsession with pissing Turkey off aside, there is a presidential election coming up in France in April, if memory serves. Given the number of Armenians in France, this is a no-brainer for politicians who can't see beyond their own voter base. The expected Turkish reaction will also damage Turkey's image at the EU level, making membership that much more difficult (assuming it's still possible, that is), which is another French goal.

    Basically, the reasoning is: two birds with one stone. But the reality is that you're just going to end up with two dead birds, rather than anything productive or useful.

    EDIT: Damn Erebus. You beat me to the punch...
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  11. #11

    Default Re: French Parliament to pass a bill to penalize Armenian genocide denial

    This is practically how you censor history.
    The Armenian Issue
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  12. #12
    Ahlerich's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: French Parliament to pass a bill to penalize Armenian genocide denial

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkLordSeth View Post
    This is practically how you censor history.
    by denial?

  13. #13

    Default Re: French Parliament to pass a bill to penalize Armenian genocide denial

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlerich View Post
    by denial?
    Denial doesn't censor history. It ignores. What the French did when they accepted the genocide allegation as true they were in denial. They denied the fact that even French historians are divided on this issue.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: French Parliament to pass a bill to penalize Armenian genocide denial

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkLordSeth View Post
    Denial doesn't censor history. It ignores. What the French did when they accepted the genocide allegation as true they were in denial. They denied the fact that even French historians are divided on this issue.
    Tell me how many French historians deny the Armenian genocide.

  15. #15

    Default Re: French Parliament to pass a bill to penalize Armenian genocide denial

    Quote Originally Posted by karo View Post
    Tell me how many French historians deny the Armenian genocide.
    Gilles Veinstein comes to mind first. He's a professor of Turkish and Ottoman History from Collège de France. He doesn't deny anything, he rejects the genocide allegations.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: French Parliament to pass a bill to penalize Armenian genocide denial

    I don't know enough about the Armenian Genocide to have an informed opinion, but this is typical French . Censor censor censor, and they have the gall to call themselves a free nation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    How about we define the rights that allow a government to say that isn't within my freedom.

  17. #17

    Default Re: French Parliament to pass a bill to penalize Armenian genocide denial

    Hasn't Taner Akçam and others been arrested under laws of "insulting Turkishness"? Are the Turks serious or is it National hypocrisy week over there?
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  18. #18

    Default Re: French Parliament to pass a bill to penalize Armenian genocide denial

    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hasn't Taner Akçam and others been arrested under laws of "insulting Turkishness"? Are the Turks serious or is it National hypocrisy week over there?
    Taner Akçam was arrested and fled from jail in 70s under charges of communist propaganda. He was not arrested or even prosecuted under Article 301. His books can be bought in bookstores in Turkey where available.
    The Armenian Issue
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  19. #19

    Default Re: French Parliament to pass a bill to penalize Armenian genocide denial

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkLordSeth View Post
    Taner Akçam was arrested and fled from jail in 70s under charges of communist propaganda. He was not arrested or even prosecuted under Article 301. His books can be bought in bookstores in Turkey where available.
    Hrant Dink was the one I was thinking of. Prosecuted three times under it.
    'When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything. '

    -Emile Cammaerts' book The Laughing Prophets (1937)

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  20. #20

    Default Re: French Parliament to pass a bill to penalize Armenian genocide denial

    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hrant Dink was the one I was thinking of. Prosecuted three times under it.
    Prosecuted twice. The third case was never opened and even when the second case was concluded the sentence was suspended. It was also ruled by ECHR to be a violation of freedom of speech which it was. But of course, this never stops EU states from supporting AKP... Are you saying that ECHR will over rule such a law in France as well?

    Dink's books are also available in bookstore in Turkey where available
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; December 15, 2011 at 07:20 PM.
    The Armenian Issue
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