Opinions on the latest debate

[Timur Amir]

Well, with some of GRRM's latest comments to the public, things have gotten a little bit heated up in parts of the ASOIAF community. Notably, he talked of the dangers of fanfiction, and brought up a case where a fanfic writer managed to actually prevent a book from being written (after the author wanted to pay them-they had accidentally recreated the plot of her next installment- they demanded half the novel's profits and threatened to sue). However, instead of just ranting angrily, he stated his case and told everyone to stay civil and nice about it to calmy talk about it. It didn't work.
Spoiler for what happened. Not important for the discussion, but just in case anyone is wondering

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It stayed civil for a while, but online politics soon burst in when the manager of Westeros.org made such statements as to start a 'hyperbole hipppcanth hippo' meme , based on her commenting name of 'hippocanthai'. Opposed fans quickly rose up with equal vulgarity.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

foul language, but these are all quotes from her posts.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

(really? That doesn't even make sense!)

Now, I am not trying to make a heated discussion here, but I have gotten so sick of this extreme flamewar on a lot of major ASOIAF media sites that I wanted to know what people's opinions are here. Not on the online politics so much-ONTD has been fighting Westeros.org for years at this point, this is just the newest battle- but on the topic itself. There are questions on how much an author owns an idea, owns fiction, and how much control should be rightfully applied. Should GRRM be allowed systematically shut down sites that have fanfiction based on his work? Is this idealogical theft? To what extent should one man control ideas?

I just want a calm third perspective, is all

[Túrin_Turambar]

I followed that flamewars as well and have to say that they are quite entertaining

[Timur Amir]

I followed that flamewars as well and have to say that they are quite entertaining

oh quite, the gloves are really coming off!

I still don't get the comparison between neighbors, sexuality, and slashfiction, though

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

Honstly he got a point,(G.R.R.M.) but again ppl should be able to make their on fanfic, but not demanding royalties of any kind, WRITE YAR ON SHIET!
But of couse I understand why ppl feel robbed, and my answer to that is live with it respect the writer for hes creation, becouse you just used hes/hers world, just like a mod of any kind.

[Timur Amir]

Honstly he got a point,(G.R.R.M.) but again ppl should be able to make their on fanfic, but not demanding royalties of any kind, WRITE YAR ON SHIET!
But of couse I understand why ppl feel robbed, and my answer to that is live with it respect the writer for hes creation, becouse you just used hes/hers world, just like a mod of any kind.

I fully agree that an author should be allowed to curb a trend with approval or disapproval, and that it is courteous to respect the author's wishes. However, I disagree with his reasoning and examples, most notably the one where the author's career was damaged. That case was a fluke, created from mismanaging the fiction and the fanfic author going way too far. The author should have never offered money or acknowledged it in the first place; being the creator of the fictional setting, she owed that writer nothing, nor should a writer demand anything. By opening with an offer, she essentially gave the writer an intellectual claim to her work, and a psychological advantage (although it wouldn't have held in court). That example was a fluke made of mismanagement and generally bad logic, and is not the norm in most communities.
Also, I disagree with the idea that an author can own a fictional setting in such a direct way; in my eyes, he/she can reserve profits made off of their ideas, and has rights to any sort of commercial usage. Ideas in themselves, however, are not property or even a physical thing, and should not be treated as such; an author has no right to try and control their fanbase's thoughts and ideas directly, or to try and shut down fanworks. Once you release an idea, you can't control where it goes and how it manifests itself, and in my mind all fanart is this manifestation. Actually, there is much agreement on that, except the last part; although I have yet to find any direct quotes pinning GRRM as saying fanfiction is not art, such supposed evidence has been used by both sides. No matter which way, though, writing is art, and I believe fullheartedly that fanfiction qualifies as art.

So, essentially, I'm agreeing with you (except on the 'write you own' thing, which adresses a whole seperate issue as to why people use fanfiction, although I believe that fanfiction is justified in that debate as well. I won't ramble on it anymore, though), for while I believe that an author should be lenient, I for one respect his sincere desire to curb fanfiction; justified or not, he made this work, and any good fans should respect his opinion regardless of rights.

[Inarus]

Lol, whoever that guy was who tried to sue is an utter [insert highly colourful and obscene language here].

I'm always writing Fan-Fiction (and my! do I hate that term), tend to consider it practice. Never considered it becoming illegal as I've never sought a profit.

Surely if someone tries to make a profit, the author has the right to shut them down.

Oh and on a related note, why isn't the AAR thread more aptly titled, AARs and Fan Fiction

Slashfiction? Oh god that brings back terrible memories of googling information on Boromir *shiver*.

[Akodo]

Lol, whoever that guy was who tried to sue is an utter [insert highly colourful and obscene language here].

I'm always writing Fan-Fiction (and my! do I hate that term), tend to consider it practice. Never considered it becoming illegal as I've never sought a profit.

Surely if someone tries to make a profit, the author has the right to shut them down.

Oh and on a related note, why isn't the AAR thread more aptly titled, AARs and Fan Fiction

Slashfiction? Oh god that brings back terrible memories of googling information on Boromir *shiver*.

It's a little bit more complicated than 'never tried to make a profit'

A person creates something. They have 'intellectual property'. They have certain legal copyright protections as long as they do not 'abandon' the work.

What this means is that I cannot develop something, and copyright it so no one else can make a profit AND give it free to the world, because once you 'give it free to the world' it is considered abandoned, and anyone including people who are going to make a profit with it or just use it personally can have a go at it.

So the only way a popular author can protect his work from those who would financially exploit it is to go after everyone who uses it for anything of the same medium for fear of the failure to defend it cause it to be called 'abandoned'.

This means I can make an oil painting of Spider-Man but not make my own Spider-Man comic, even if it was just a Spider-Man comic to run in my high-school newspaper.

I can make paintings of Jon Snow. I can make a life-size model of Jon Snow out of macaroni, but when I start writing stories including a character called Jon Snow then I am in the same media and if GRRM wants to be the only one who can write books and sell them about Jon Snow then he needs to tell me to stop or risk being charged with 'abandoning' Jon Snow

[Skizbot]

Fanfiction is terrible, I can't stress that enough. It amazes me that people who obviously enjoy the ASOIAF books and recognize Martin's skill as a writer would think they can just take it upon themselves to work with the characters he has created. That takes a great deal of arrogance. Fan fic cheapens an authors work rather than honoring it, and it doesn't do anything to make the fan fic writer a better author. Someone who falls in love with painting through the work of Picasso do not themselves become an artist by painting Guernica over and over again. Fan fiction is lazy, annoying, and just awful on so many levels. I'm glad Martin has taken such a firm stance against it.

[Timur Amir]

Fanfiction is terrible, I can't stress that enough. It amazes me that people who obviously enjoy the ASOIAF books and recognize Martin's skill as a writer would think they can just take it upon themselves to work with the characters he has created. That takes a great deal of arrogance. Fan fic cheapens an authors work rather than honoring it, and it doesn't do anything to make the fan fic writer a better author. Someone who falls in love with painting through the work of Picasso do not themselves become an artist by painting Guernica over and over again. Fan fiction is lazy, annoying, and just awful on so many levels. I'm glad Martin has taken such a firm stance against it.

I think that, on the contrary, there are multiple ways to utilize fanfiction, not all of them bad. Many are. But between comedy fics, 'fix fics', alternate timeline fics, ect., I don't see how that is copying his work. It's playing with it, and taking something you like and experimenting with it. Some authors try to utilize this also to make a message at the same time. Many authors legitimately grow from the practice and community feedback. You seem to generalize it rather, and rant on about how it instead cheapens an author's work, and is somehow arrogant. It would be arrogant to think you can do better, but clearly you haven't seen all the issue of this; fanfiction is a massive and varied thing. Every work has its own purpose, its own point.

Also, I beg to differ on that last part; the metaphor is very poor. To repeat Guernica would be to copy the book. To slowly dissassemble Guernica, to remake parts and twist others to try and see what your style is, to look at what it takes truly to both make the original and these new additions, this distortion...yes, it would help.


sorry for the rant, by the way, but I have experience writing AARs and personally have assisted with a fanfic or two, not to mention plenty of heavy analysis and exploration of the genre (I was curious), and this is what I found. I understand that much of fanfiction is as you described, but I found enough notable exceptions to make me start looking at things in a new perspective.

EDIT: so yeah, mostly right, except there is a legitimately good and positive minority in it, which does benefit a number of people. Generalization is bad (also, a better metaphor than that Picasso one, in my mind, is fanart: after all, fanfiction can only relate slightly to the main plot, and focus on, say, Sothoryos, using the fanfiction media to find an audience).

[Skizbot]

Also, I beg to differ on that last part; the metaphor is very poor. To repeat Guernica would be to copy the book. To slowly dissassemble Guernica, to remake parts and twist others to try and see what your style is, to look at what it takes truly to both make the original and these new additions, this distortion...yes, it would help.

I disagree, while that might help someone with the technical aspects of painting, those skills can be learned without walking in another artists shoes. Even if you're building something new you're using another authors building blocks, which stunts the authors growth and prevents them from having to stand on their own feet. At the end of the day your taking someone elses creation and creating something lower quality out of it. Its a matter of opinion and obviously the internet is bursting at the seams with people who love reading and writing fanfic, but I find it distasteful.

AARs are awesome but the ones I like are based on something that actually occurred in a game, as opposed to fanfic written by people using someone else's work in place of their own imagination.

[Pinkie Pie]

I disagree, while that might help someone with the technical aspects of painting, those skills can be learned without walking in another artists shoes. Even if you're building something new you're using another authors building blocks, which stunts the authors growth and prevents them from having to stand on their own feet. At the end of the day your taking someone elses creation and creating something lower quality out of it. Its a matter of opinion and obviously the internet is bursting at the seams with people who love reading and writing fanfic, but I find it distasteful.

AARs are awesome but the ones I like are based on something that actually occurred in a game, as opposed to fanfic written by people using someone else's work in place of their own imagination.

Surely your stance would stop you from playing a mod of ASoIaF? After all if you were to attack Highgarden as the Martells then you have created your own version of GRRM's work and thus created a fanfiction. The only way you could legitimately go with that arguement and play this mod is if you put in a massive script to force every faction to play exactly as they do in the books. You would also not be able to watch the series because that does not follow the books either.

I personally think that fanfiction should be allowed as long as they do not attempt to make money out of it in any way.

[Timur Amir]

I disagree, while that might help someone with the technical aspects of painting, those skills can be learned without walking in another artists shoes. Even if you're building something new you're using another authors building blocks, which stunts the authors growth and prevents them from having to stand on their own feet. At the end of the day your taking someone elses creation and creating something lower quality out of it. Its a matter of opinion and obviously the internet is bursting at the seams with people who love reading and writing fanfic, but I find it distasteful.

AARs are awesome but the ones I like are based on something that actually occurred in a game, as opposed to fanfic written by people using someone else's work in place of their own imagination.

it stunts the worldbuilding aspect, but doesn't AAR-writing as well? The setting is already there, it just needs fleshing out. And, as the world of ASOIAF is huge and largely unexplored, there is plenty of room for actually MORE creativity.
Not to mention that good fanfic writers need to plot their writing, which is actually less present in AARs since the story course is already decided by the gameplay. (not dissing AAR writers, but to deviate more from the campaign story would push it into-guess what?-fanfiction territory. Also, AARs are difficult, and require plenty of planning to do well.)

[Inarus]

Fanfiction is terrible, I can't stress that enough. It amazes me that people who obviously enjoy the ASOIAF books and recognize Martin's skill as a writer would think they can just take it upon themselves to work with the characters he has created. That takes a great deal of arrogance. Fan fic cheapens an authors work rather than honoring it, and it doesn't do anything to make the fan fic writer a better author. Someone who falls in love with painting through the work of Picasso do not themselves become an artist by painting Guernica over and over again. Fan fiction is lazy, annoying, and just awful on so many levels. I'm glad Martin has taken such a firm stance against it.

Be careful what you say because that was extremely insulting and based on a small part of a wide range.

Furthermore Historical Fiction is pretty much fan fiction of a period.

And I've seen just as much bad AARs as I have Fan Fiction, and I've pretty much looked through almost the entire TATW AAR and Fan Fiction sub-forum.

@noobas bwb?

[Skizbot]

Be careful what you say because that was extremely insulting and based on a small part of a wide range.

Furthermore Historical Fiction is pretty much fan fiction of a period.

And I've seen just as much bad AARs as I have Fan Fiction, and I've pretty much looked through almost the entire TATW AAR and Fan Fiction sub-forum.

@noobas bwb?

I'm not talking about a small range of fanfic, all fanfic is terrible. Whether its considered good or bad fanfic its still a lazy, cheap rehash of the work of a more creative mind. Calling someone who writes fanfic an "author" is extremely generous. These are not your characters, your places, or your events, so muster up some respect and keep your hands off of them.

[Toho]

as long as GRRM doesn't concern himself with us, other than praise us (the team), i could careless if some losers are sitting in their parents basement fantasizing AryaxJon romance or some other ridiculous crap.

[Skizbot]

I don't think people should be sued for doing it, I just wish they would stop doing it of their own accord :/. I feel like AARs are different because the writer is commenting on something that happened in the game, and possibly retelling these events in a way that makes them fit into the world of the books.

[Toho]

you guys are getting off topic, this is a game, its different from a book. in my game anything can happen; the AI can do crap that I cant foresee while if I write a book/fanfic on it, it is much more different. to compare "attack city A" to characterization, symbolism, foreshadowing, plot, dialogues and etc is just stupid.

yes this mod is fan made based on ASOIF but it hardly goes into the character and plot detail GRRM or any other author would be concerned with, this mod is basically the "off-screen" scenarios that GRRM did not even include in his books. the war of the five kings campaigns and battles were usually second hand info from minor characters. so once again it has nothing to do with writing a fan-fic based on GRRM and then wanting to profit of them.

I am certain that WTW would also get shut down the minute we start charging you guys to play or look at our preview (though the idea does seem interesting, lets start with 100$ per weekly subscription )

[Pinkie Pie]

I agree with the subscription, while you saps pay for it I am off to start downloading this from a torrent for free

[Noobio]

i'd love to see some fanfic in the form of a comic book series or stand alone spin offs, in the westeros universe..let's say short stories on various minor characters or periods of the main ones..examples could be,
how maester marwyn met mirri maz dur,
how varys and illyrio met,
some random ranging beyond the wall,
how mance united the tribes,
how the bwb got created
how drogo rose to power etc etc..

plain/conventional storytellin but with great attention to the established mannerisms, world creation and backround lore

design, color and pencils should be really epic, in the lines of the good ol' savage sword of conan, something retro, not like the current AGOT comic book series that dynamite is publishing..
both this and teh old hedge knight graphic novels had a really crappy artwork..not that it wasn't "good" but it just failed to depict the gloominess and grittiness of the characters.which is the main interest of these novels

most other fanfic, as in novel-text form are utterly crap except of course, for some humourous ones

[Murfmurf]

Be careful this doesn't turn into a flamewar itself guys

@ Inarus: BwB = Brotherhood Without Banners.