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  1. #1
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Was Charles de Gaulle ultimately right?

    For those of us who don't know what I am talking about, French former President Charles de Gaulle had constantly expressed his distrust towards UK, believed that UK was the Fifth Column US sent out to destroy United Europe and constantly to refuse this "US spy" to enter grand European politic. Now, as some of you know, UK just rejected the new treaty of a more united EuroZone yesterday despite France and Germany's hard effort to solve this Euro crisis. Do you think De Gaulle is ultimately right that UK is a saboteur that undermine United Europe?

    European commentators have reacted with anger at Britain's decision not to join a tax and budget pact to tackle the eurozone debt crisis, though some are not surprised by the UK, which has stood for so long on the sidelines of the European project.

    Many Germans are outraged by British Prime Minister David Cameron's move.

    Alexander Graf Lambsdorff, head of the Germany's FDP group, part of the European Liberals, goes as far as to say it was "a mistake to let the British into the EU".

    Britain must now renegotiate its relationship with the EU, he said. "Either they [the British] do it on their own initiative, or the EU refounds itself - without Great Britain. Switzerland is a model towards which Britain can turn itself."

    Others see the summit's outcome as merely revealing faultlines and deep differences in attitudes towards Europe.

    Writing in the Italian La Repubblica newspaper, Alessio Sgherza says that the summit "sank... because of the old but still unresolved division between... pro-European and Eurosceptic states".

    Meanwhile Daniel Cohen-Bendit, joint leader of the Greens in the European Parliament has labelled Mr Cameron "a weakling".

    German Christian Democrat MEP Elmar Brok, foreign policy spokesman for the centre-right in the European parliament, echoed his sentiment: "If you're not ready to abide by the rules, you'd do better to keep your mouth shut."

    Yvan Duvant, writing to the BBC from Olargues, in France, says that as the UK is slowing down the move towards EU integration, it should leave the union altogether: "What's the point of keeping this country in the EU? The British people should put pressure on their government to quit. Maybe the British would do better without the EU. Europe will definitely do better without the UK."
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    If UK just wants to enjoy the advantage but unwilling to make some sacrifice, why not just kick UK out?
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  2. #2
    Treize's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Was Charles de Gaulle ultimately right?

    Wasn't De Gaulle quite against the eurofederalist project himself?
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  3. #3
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Was Charles de Gaulle ultimately right?

    The notion that the UK is working on behalf of the US to destroy the EU is quite absurd and entirely missed the point. The UK has long opposed the idea of uniting Europe into a single nation: the UK joined the EEC to access the Free Market as part of it's desire to shift trading emphasis away from the Commonwealth and towards Europe. This was due to the rapid rise of trading there contrasted with slow and weak trade with the Commonwealth. It was never the UK's goal, or in it's interests, to become a single nation with Europe. All the UK wanted was a free market, which it has, and has opposed federalisation initiatives on those grounds.

    The reason the UK stays in the EU rather than adopting the Swiss model is (according to Cameron as a response to the calls for a referendum on the UK leaving the EU) because we'd have no influence or ability to protect ourselves from outside the EU. We'd have to comply with every EU law regarding the free market with no say or ability to influence those laws.

    This isn't about the UK wanting to sink the EU, it's about the UK wanting to protect its access to the free market.

  4. #4
    Menelik_I's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Was Charles de Gaulle ultimately right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Poach View Post
    because we'd have no influence or ability to protect ourselves from outside the EU. We'd have to comply with every EU law regarding the free market with no say or ability to influence those laws.
    So according to Cameron every single country that sign a free trade agreement with the USA should also surrender sovereignty and ask for seat in US congress ?

    This is a phony argument, Cameron is a really a snake oil quack.

    ETA:

    @OP:

    Cameron is actually doing the EU binding by guaranteing that He stays in power so He can continue to fool the British public, the guy is avoiding a referendum has the plague even though He promised one.
    Last edited by Menelik_I; December 10, 2011 at 01:03 PM.
    « Le courage est toujours quelque chose de saint, un jugement divin entre deux idées. Défendre notre cause de plus en plus vigoureusement est conforme à la nature humaine. Notre suprême raison d’être est donc de lutter ; on ne possède vraiment que ce qu’on acquiert en combattant. »Ernst Jünger
    La Guerre notre Mère (Der Kampf als inneres Erlebnis), 1922, trad. Jean Dahel, éditions Albin Michel, 1934

  5. #5

    Default Re: Was Charles de Gaulle ultimately right?

    Our government is a pretty crappy saboteur then if the aim of the UK is to take down the EU. In fact i would say that the rest of the EU is doing the job of sabotaging itself extremely well without British help being added as well.


  6. #6

    Default Re: Was Charles de Gaulle ultimately right?

    Quote Originally Posted by General Brittanicus View Post
    Our government is a pretty crappy saboteur then if the aim of the UK is to take down the EU. In fact i would say that the rest of the EU is doing the job of sabotaging itself extremely well without British help being added as well.
    Why would you believe that? One would rather have to say rge EU sabotages itself because it proves too successful and thus things went too fast. The thing is thus far it doesn't show the doom and gloom when 26 countries with 26 interests agree to do certain things. It also shows something when one of 27 countries is ultimately ignored by the other 26.
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  7. #7
    Imperial's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Was Charles de Gaulle ultimately right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangalore View Post
    it proves too successful and thus things went too fast.

    It's so successful it's doomed to fail?

  8. #8

    Default Re: Was Charles de Gaulle ultimately right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangalore View Post
    Why would you believe that? One would rather have to say rge EU sabotages itself because it proves too successful and thus things went too fast. The thing is thus far it doesn't show the doom and gloom when 26 countries with 26 interests agree to do certain things. It also shows something when one of 27 countries is ultimately ignored by the other 26.
    So what your saying is that, the EU started very well, but then screwed things up by dis-regarding all its own rules, inviting unsuitable nations to join and then trying to bludgeon through measures to ineffectively deal with the issues. Sounds kind of sabotagey to me .

    And doesn't show the doom and gloom? At least 3 EU nations are having to impose sever austerity measures on their own people, France, Italy and Spain are facing fairly large problems and the Euro is teetering on the brink of destruction - if that not worthy of being called doom and gloom i dont know what is.
    Last edited by General Brittanicus; December 10, 2011 at 03:19 PM.


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    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Was Charles de Gaulle ultimately right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Menelik_I View Post
    So according to Cameron every single country that sign a free trade agreement with the USA should also surrender sovereignty and ask for seat in US congress ?
    The majority of the UK's trade goes to the EU. If we can influence their laws regarding trade we're at a disadvantage.

    I'm sure if most of the UK's trade went to North America and they were creating some sort of Atlantic Free Trade zone we'd want in on that one, too.

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    Menelik_I's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Was Charles de Gaulle ultimately right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Poach View Post
    I'm sure if most of the UK's trade went to North America and they were creating some sort of Atlantic Free Trade zone we'd want in on that one, too.
    ''UKoGBNI, wanting to be into in your trade zone since 1707 ... baby''

    You mean your political elite wants that, I don't remember the british public voting on that matter.
    « Le courage est toujours quelque chose de saint, un jugement divin entre deux idées. Défendre notre cause de plus en plus vigoureusement est conforme à la nature humaine. Notre suprême raison d’être est donc de lutter ; on ne possède vraiment que ce qu’on acquiert en combattant. »Ernst Jünger
    La Guerre notre Mère (Der Kampf als inneres Erlebnis), 1922, trad. Jean Dahel, éditions Albin Michel, 1934

  11. #11
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Was Charles de Gaulle ultimately right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Menelik_I View Post
    ''UKoGBNI, wanting to be into in your trade zone since 1707 ... baby''

    You mean your political elite wants that, I don't remember the british public voting on that matter.
    Pretty useless post you've got there, did it have a point relevant to the discussion?

  12. #12
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Was Charles de Gaulle ultimately right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Poach View Post
    This isn't about the UK wanting to sink the EU, it's about the UK wanting to protect its access to the free market.
    Which means UK should get out of EU if they want to protect their beloved free market so much - no sacrifice, no gain.
    Last edited by hellheaven1987; December 10, 2011 at 04:51 PM.
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    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  13. #13
    Sir Pignans's Avatar The bringer of cheese.
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    Default Re: Was Charles de Gaulle ultimately right?

    Is this the same De Gaulle who wanted to merge with the UK at one point?
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Was Charles de Gaulle ultimately right?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    For those of us who don't know what I am talking about, French former President Charles de Gaulle had constantly expressed his distrust towards UK, believed that UK was the Fifth Column US sent out to destroy United Europe and constantly to refuse this "US spy" to enter grand European politic. Now, as some of you know, UK just rejected the new treaty of a more united EuroZone yesterday despite France and Germany's hard effort to solve this Euro crisis. Do you think De Gaulle is ultimately right that UK is a saboteur that undermine United Europe?
    Already stated multiple times, yes.

  15. #15
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Was Charles de Gaulle ultimately right?

    Implying that the populace as a whole is even remotely qualified to decide how to run a country. There's a reason we (well, we're supposed to) elect people fit to govern to positions of power. It's off-topic, though, how does a UK EU referendum address the actions of the UK as a state within the EU?

  16. #16

    Default Re: Was Charles de Gaulle ultimately right?

    So according to Cameron every single country that sign a free trade agreement with the USA should also surrender sovereignty and ask for seat in US congress ?
    Free trade and a single market are two different things.

    The US and Canada have one of the largest and most integrated free trade agreements in the world, but you cannot cross the border without going through customs, you cannot sell products without passing the FDA or HPFB, you cannot move across the border to work without a visa etc.

  17. #17
    Menelik_I's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Was Charles de Gaulle ultimately right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    Free trade and a single market are two different things.

    The US and Canada have one of the largest and most integrated free trade agreements in the world, but you cannot cross the border without going through customs, you cannot sell products without passing the FDA or HPFB, you cannot move across the border to work without a visa etc.
    Genius David Camerons and the EU says the contrary ... why are you such a Nazi with your weird Canadian and American Nazi theories. Racist !?! /sarcasm


    Quote Originally Posted by Poach View Post
    Implying that the populace as a whole is even remotely qualified to decide how to run a country.
    They are qualified to decide wether the country should cease to exist and be part of an EU superstate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poach View Post
    how does a UK EU referendum address the actions of the UK as a state within the EU?
    wrong video,cast iron guaranty dave gave people
    Last edited by Menelik_I; December 10, 2011 at 03:46 PM.
    « Le courage est toujours quelque chose de saint, un jugement divin entre deux idées. Défendre notre cause de plus en plus vigoureusement est conforme à la nature humaine. Notre suprême raison d’être est donc de lutter ; on ne possède vraiment que ce qu’on acquiert en combattant. »Ernst Jünger
    La Guerre notre Mère (Der Kampf als inneres Erlebnis), 1922, trad. Jean Dahel, éditions Albin Michel, 1934

  18. #18

    Default Re: Was Charles de Gaulle ultimately right?

    Why stop at just the UK. All your base are belong to us.

  19. #19
    Sir Winston Churchill's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Was Charles de Gaulle ultimately right?

    Charles de Gaulle was a Frenchman if there ever was one, and that means being completely and utterly paranoid of England. It's akin to being an American and being completely and utterly paranoid of the Middle East. It just comes natural because of bad past events.

    So no, he was not right. The UK being an instrument of the US is a hilarious thought. The UK trying to create the downfall of Europe is equally laughable.

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  20. #20

    Default Re: Was Charles de Gaulle ultimately right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Weary One View Post
    Charles de Gaulle was a Frenchman if there ever was one, and that means being completely and utterly paranoid of England. It's akin to being an American and being completely and utterly paranoid of the Middle East. It just comes natural because of bad past events.

    So no, he was not right. The UK being an instrument of the US is a hilarious thought. The UK trying to create the downfall of Europe is equally laughable.
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