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  1. #1

    Default Slavery is forever

    ___How little people understand, freedom is an illusion. A lie perpetrated by our goverment and many others for centuries. Freedom is a lie in that the supposed gaining of it enslaves oneself to oneself. We are a slave, at the beck and call of our own decisions. But freedom however illusionary cannot be bought, sold or stolen. One cannot be oppressed unless you accept oppression. A man could take your life and all you own but unless you accept defeat you are still free. It is as simple as that. In this way it would seem that it is not peasants but the kings that have the least freedom. They are bound to their decisions day and night, never able to escape. The peasant by converse lays the burden of thought on the leaders and is thus free of it, free to explore life through thought. It is of course true that the governed have the right to overthrow the governors when their freedoms are repressed but it is only by the oppressed accepting it that they are such, so the act of overthrowing the leading class can be done as simple as accepting the burdens layed on the governed class whatever they may be. Besides the obvious fact that the decison to gain freedom through the overthow of a leader brings about less freedom than is had merely by letting things be. These lost freedoms take the form of decision that need to be made on how to overthrow, when, and who to put in his place. And in doing so you enslave yourself to the pursuit of a freedom you never lost in the first place.
    ___The extent of this elaborate lie can be seen to almost its full extent in our own decleration of independance. The inaliable rights of man kind, as claimed by that sacred document, are life, liberty, and the pursute of happiness. But this could not be farther from the truth. No man has the right to his life, but no man has the right to take it. If you are drowning in the ocean what does the ocean care of your right to life. Liberty is reletive and varies person to person so cannot be seen as an inalienable right unless we are to accept the fact that all opinions are correct to their fullest extent. All this contradiction would lead to chaos untill all but one opinion remains and thus the freedom of your right to liberty and all other relatives has been determined for you, thus you are a slave to your own opinions. And lastly the pursuit of happiness, the essence of freedom. Their is no doubt that this is a right, but it is more than that, it is your soul, it is freedom itself. As long as your brain still function you retain the ability to pursue happiness, but that does not mean you can achieve it and that is where the misconception arises. Many believe that their rights are supressed when they cannot achieve the happiness they so desire but happiness can almost be described as the pusuit of it. We are in a constant strugle to maintain a balanance between wanting and having. To want is to strive to have, but to have is to forsake our want, thus the reason for drug addictions. They can be had without a permanent attachment. So we are slaves to a decision between what we have and what we want and a slave to the decision itself. The cure comes from within not without. When the foolish feel their rights are infringed when they have not achieve their happiness they seek a physical reprimand. The truth is that it is a matter of achieving a want for what you have. The absolute of this is to want what you have when you have nothing and thus you achieve happiness and perhaps the freedom that so eludes many today.
    ___Your soul is free from birth and no one but you can change that. Those that are too earth oriented fear the loss of a freedom that cannot be lost. The loss of physical things which ultimatly amount to naught do not take with them your freedom. Physical things in fact reduce your freedom by the decisions they bring with them. Decisions cloud and tangle you freedom when it doesnt have to be so, so long as you understand that you will sucumb to a decision. When you are hungry you eat, but many would starve trying to make a decision between two foods they love. For that reason do people give up their burdens for a dose of freedom by relying on another source for thought. Thus to achive complete freedom one doesnt free himself from all people and live aloof of them but place all faith in them or even greater, a cause. By accepting a cause such as the pursuit of absolut freedom, pehaps the only true and pure pursuit, to make your decisions you free you mind from the burden and loss of freedom of those decisions without forcing another to surrender their freedoms to both their own and your decisions. But some would accept those burdens for the freedom of those they lead. Perhaps a noble pursuit but gives rise to the desire for more responsibility and decison making power, which in turn becomes the desire for power itself. A leader therfore is enslaved by all the decisions that entail the pursuit of power and ultimately happiness through that power and thus cannot achieve it. You can now understand how power corrupts. The drive to achive happiness leads many down a never ending path of despair wether or not those following it see it as such. Allow your cause or, if you must, your leader, whatever form it may take be it a single person or a commity of many, to make your decisions and free your mind, achive peace, and ultimatley happiness.
    ___The the truth boils down to one fact. You already have your freedom and not a thing in this universe can take it away from you without your consent.
    ___"I would rather be a slave than a king."
    -Vyktrius
    The enemy of my enemy dies next.
    GLADIO VIVERE SPONDENTES IN QVISQVAM NISI NEX GLADIO NON DESINABIMVS
    There are no rights, only privleges. How do you earn yours?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Slavery is forever

    Um good argument. I have to sleep now. Freedom is a illusion not because it is created, but because of how easy it to take away. And the rubbish people use as an excuse. When fed - > next step is freedom
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  3. #3
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Slavery is forever

    Quote Originally Posted by vikingsiddhu
    Freedom is a illusion not because it is created, but because of how easy it to take away.
    Which is why our freedoms and rights guaranteed by Law must never be allowed to be surrendered. If they take one, what will stop the government from taking them all?

    As a wise man, one Benjamin Franklin, once stated:
    "Those who would give up a little freedom to gain some protection deserve neither freedom nor protection."

  4. #4

    Default Re: Slavery is forever

    Quote Originally Posted by Hapsburg
    Which is why our freedoms and rights guaranteed by Law must never be allowed to be surrendered. If they take one, what will stop the government from taking them all?

    As a wise man, one Benjamin Franklin, once stated:
    "Those who would give up a little freedom to gain some protection deserve neither freedom nor protection."
    True, the most dangerous people of all are those who do things slowly, and gradually. Imagine if we slowly as each presedental term passes, we lose a right or two, of course, at a moment, the normal human populace would not see much of a difference. But imagine the dreadful consequences.

    If a president bans freedom of speech straight out, I don't even think the army will support him, which goes to an other argument: should our loyalties be to our leader or to our country, and the welfare of its populace?

    Imagine if people were enough educate to see that you dont need to ban freedom, in a political sense, to feed people. Which goes to the argument that knowledge is freedom.
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  5. #5
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Slavery is forever

    Quote Originally Posted by vikingsiddhu
    If a president bans freedom of speech straight out, I don't even think the army will support him, which goes to an other argument: should our loyalties be to our leader or to our country, and the welfare of its populace?
    The the people, of course. If a president is doing a really, really, ****** job, or is taking the people's freedoms, the military should consider it a duty to overthrow him, and do an emergency election.

    knowledge is freedom.
    Though corny, that is true.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Slavery is forever

    Quote Originally Posted by Hapsburg
    The the people, of course. If a president is doing a really, really, ****** job, or is taking the people's freedoms, the military should consider it a duty to overthrow him, and do an emergency election.


    Though corny, that is true.
    The military taking overthrowing the president in the event of a horrible term would be prudent, but there are other measures that would be implemented long before the military intervenes i.e. impeachment. If the army rose up to overthrow the government it would not be as an entity of its own but under the direction of a General or similarly high ranking officer who has earned enough influence in the military to make the army move to his will. But that would be a "coup de ta" and a revolution. No General who takes it upon himself to overthrow a "bad" leader is going to content himself with just that.
    The enemy of my enemy dies next.
    GLADIO VIVERE SPONDENTES IN QVISQVAM NISI NEX GLADIO NON DESINABIMVS
    There are no rights, only privleges. How do you earn yours?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Slavery is forever

    Freedom is the ultimate good. But all essences of the world have different degrees of freedom in them. For example, our soul is by nature free. Our mind is less free. Our body is the less free of them all. But perhaps it is a good thing that our soul binds to this body and mind, and tries to raise the degrees of freedom of them to her level. You learn to use your mind and it becomes agile, you learn to use your body and it becomes agile, and who knows where this kind of perfection could possibly lead...

  8. #8

    Default Re: Slavery is forever

    Nirvana of course. But you are right. There are degrees of freedom that the three components of our lives cannot exceed. But to gain ultimate freedom in body you would have to free yourself from the need of food, water, sleep, shelter, and well being. For that reason is freedom a true illusion. Just as your soul is. That does not mean it does not exist, it merely means you cannot prove it exists so you certainly cannot take it away by any means or to any degree.
    The enemy of my enemy dies next.
    GLADIO VIVERE SPONDENTES IN QVISQVAM NISI NEX GLADIO NON DESINABIMVS
    There are no rights, only privleges. How do you earn yours?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Slavery is forever

    Before debating freedom, one should always define what is freedom for him.
    I sin for the good of humankind
    "I praise, I do not reproach, [nihilism's] arrival. I believe it is one of the greatest crises, a moment of the deepest self-reflection of humanity. Whether man recovers from it, whether he becomes master of this crisis, is a question of his strength."
    -Nietzsche
    Truth is not a law, a democracy, a book or a norm not even a constitution. Nor can it be read in the stars.

  10. #10
    Evariste's Avatar We are one, we are many
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    Default Re: Slavery is forever

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris
    Before debating freedom, one should always define what is freedom for him.
    The right to do whatever you want as long as s/he does not hurt, trample, or trespass on the rights of another.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Slavery is forever

    Though all your thoughts on freedom are valid, to a point, consider my definition. This is how I see it. Try taking of your cloths and walking outside. You can't do it can you. A person's clothes do not protect their skin, inclement wheather not withstanding. You see, we care too much about things that don't matter one iota. We care quite a bit about what other people will think. We frustrate ourselves almost intentionally, and daily. If you can achieve a permanent sence of total happines about all things, that is the freedom I speak of. When you can take of your cloths and without the slightest thought walk into broad daylight, then you may have what I speak of as freedom. But the thought not to care cannot be a thought in and of itself, it must be as natural to you to do those things that others won't as it is for you to breath. You don't think about it, you don't worry about it, you don't even notice it, you just do it.
    The enemy of my enemy dies next.
    GLADIO VIVERE SPONDENTES IN QVISQVAM NISI NEX GLADIO NON DESINABIMVS
    There are no rights, only privleges. How do you earn yours?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Slavery is forever

    Which would lead you to a debate as to weather freedom is an absolut or a relative.
    The enemy of my enemy dies next.
    GLADIO VIVERE SPONDENTES IN QVISQVAM NISI NEX GLADIO NON DESINABIMVS
    There are no rights, only privleges. How do you earn yours?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Slavery is forever

    Quote Originally Posted by Vyktrius
    Which would lead you to a debate as to weather freedom is an absolut or a relative.
    It is both, it is absolute by your definition, but relative as a concept, but you would debate about your own definition, so if defined correctly is not necessarily relative.

    Because freedom is a term way too vague to debate about if not defined because there's about 100000000 different visions of what freedom is.
    I sin for the good of humankind
    "I praise, I do not reproach, [nihilism's] arrival. I believe it is one of the greatest crises, a moment of the deepest self-reflection of humanity. Whether man recovers from it, whether he becomes master of this crisis, is a question of his strength."
    -Nietzsche
    Truth is not a law, a democracy, a book or a norm not even a constitution. Nor can it be read in the stars.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Slavery is forever

    Not necessarily true. There may be 100000000 things to which freedom pertains, but gaining freedom, if that can be done, in each of those one hundred million categories adds to the degree of your total freedom. But for the sake of this argument let us say there are three. Freedom of spirit, freedom of mind, and freedom of body. But when one realisizes that it is only the freedom of spirit that even maters do you realize that it cannot be lost. Freedom of mind and body can be taken away easily and examples of such are numerous beyond count. But true freedom refers to freedom of spirt, which is often confused for freedom of mind. So true freedom would refere to freedom from want, not to be confused for needs. When you want nothing, nothing can be taken away. Thus the idea of freedom as it is known, an almost tangible object, is an illusion.
    The enemy of my enemy dies next.
    GLADIO VIVERE SPONDENTES IN QVISQVAM NISI NEX GLADIO NON DESINABIMVS
    There are no rights, only privleges. How do you earn yours?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Slavery is forever

    Quote Originally Posted by Vyktrius
    Not necessarily true. There may be 100000000 things to which freedom pertains, but gaining freedom, if that can be done, in each of those one hundred million categories adds to the degree of your total freedom. But for the sake of this argument let us say there are three. Freedom of spirit, freedom of mind, and freedom of body. But when one realisizes that it is only the freedom of spirit that even maters do you realize that it cannot be lost. Freedom of mind and body can be taken away easily and examples of such are numerous beyond count. But true freedom refers to freedom of spirt, which is often confused for freedom of mind. So true freedom would refere to freedom from want, not to be confused for needs. When you want nothing, nothing can be taken away. Thus the idea of freedom as it is known, an almost tangible object, is an illusion.
    Here, you are defining your freedom. Because there is no such thing as "one freedom" because one's freedom will often restrain the other's.
    I sin for the good of humankind
    "I praise, I do not reproach, [nihilism's] arrival. I believe it is one of the greatest crises, a moment of the deepest self-reflection of humanity. Whether man recovers from it, whether he becomes master of this crisis, is a question of his strength."
    -Nietzsche
    Truth is not a law, a democracy, a book or a norm not even a constitution. Nor can it be read in the stars.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Slavery is forever

    I don't think so. You must do what is right for yourself that is right for the group. The belief in the false freedom, the freedom that you can do what you want, when you want, how you want, is wrong. And that is what you are saying, or at least saying that I'm defining. Everyone can achieve ultimate freedom, in fact it may even be easier with help. Believe it or not communism would work except that it relies too heavily on human nature, so natrually it only takes one person to throw the whole system out of whack. If we could find a way to flawlessly combine the checks and balances and a minimum of the excessive freedoms of our Republican Democracy with the Communal aspect of Communism then we would have pretty good society, in my own opinion of course. Communism doesn't limit your freedoms, the people in charge in a communism do. So, you see it is through the misguided belife in this false freedom that we hinder other's freedoms.
    The enemy of my enemy dies next.
    GLADIO VIVERE SPONDENTES IN QVISQVAM NISI NEX GLADIO NON DESINABIMVS
    There are no rights, only privleges. How do you earn yours?

  17. #17
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Slavery is forever

    In every moment you are free to do what is right to do in that moment, or not. That is the only freedom which is necessary, and it doesn't imply groups, individuals, societies, laws, passions...

    Understanding what is right, and being desciplined enough to do it, is freedom.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Slavery is forever

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon

    Understanding what is right, and being desciplined enough to do it, is freedom.

    The problem is that doing the right thing is almost never popular. In a democratic society, popularity is more important than right.

    Very few people in the United States are free, going by this definition.
    WE GO PLAY SOME HOOP

  19. #19
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: Slavery is forever

    Freedoms can be practically limited, Ummon. Theoretical and real freedoms are definitely different things, and you seem often to confuse the two.

  20. #20
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Slavery is forever

    Quote Originally Posted by Squeakus Maximus
    Freedoms can be practically limited, Ummon. Theoretical and real freedoms are definitely different things, and you seem often to confuse the two.
    I don't think you really understood the meaning of my comment, sincerely.

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