The Fight against Fascism

[Armenum]

I for one am a deep hater of the fascist ideologies regarding Nazism, white supremacy, and often times stemming from that a hatred and dehumanisation of anybody that doesn't fit their disillusioned category of people. Often times, such Fascist ideals have also yielded Islamaphobia, another ideology I despise, especially in areas with large populations of Muslim immigrants. Unfortunately, with the tough economic times, demographic crisis, and high immigration, conditions have led for such extreme right wing ideas to spread, not by a lot, but steadily. I believe that the dangers of certain far-right groups that preach hate against anybody not like them should be considered.

A few things about the Fascists that I see:

1) Psychoanalysis - I really believe that most of these fascists are paranoid schizophrenics but use the cover of a "movement" to disguise their mental problems. They believe that the "inferior" races are out to destroy their race which they view as much more supreme. I think there is also the need to find a scapegoat for their own problems and viable method to spew their hate.

2) Making Careful Distinctions - I think that it's viable to have right wing parties and movements. Right wing movements that preach conservatism, nationalistic, stricter immigration laws, all of this can be done in a non-racist and xenophobic way - in short it can be done with respect to other human beings.

3) Goals - I see their goals as being heavily reliant on media and public attention. Thus they resort to violence in order to "spread their message". They refuse civil dialogue and are blind in seeing grey areas in their ideology. They are almost brainwashed, but I believe this has to do with the psychoanalysis point made earlier.

Though in all they lack one fundamental understanding. That very minuscule differences in genes do not signify such divisions amongst human beings. They are disillusioned with "labels" and are unable to think further than those "labels".

[Their Law]

I for one am a deep hater of the fascist ideologies regarding Nazism, white supremacy, and often times stemming from that a hatred and dehumanisation of anybody that doesn't fit their disillusioned category of people. Often times, such Fascist ideals have also yielded Islamaphobia, another ideology I despise, especially in areas with large populations of Muslim immigrants. Unfortunately, with the tough economic times, demographic crisis, and high immigration, conditions have led for such extreme right wing ideas to spread, not by a lot, but steadily. I believe that the dangers of certain far-right groups that preach hate against anybody not like them should be considered.

I agree, personally I feel that the rise of the far right under the faux umbrella of islamaphobia is perhaps the most insidious threat to modern Europe in particular.

I'm particularly concerned as to the relative ease of which people adopt the stereotypes spread by these groups into the mainstream consciousness. Case in point is the frankly disturbing reaction of some people to Anders Breivik's horrific actions.

[Armenum]

I agree, personally I feel that the rise of the far right under the faux umbrella of islamaphobia is perhaps the most insidious threat to modern Europe in particular.

I'm particularly concerned as to the relative ease of which people adopt the stereotypes spread by these groups into the mainstream consciousness. Case in point is the frankly disturbing reaction of some people to Anders Breivik's horrific actions.

They are disillusioned with the notion that they can "scare" Muslim immigrants away. I think a very unhealthy tensions has thus been created and it's just making everything worse and at times "Christian" Europe doesn't act very Christian in regards to these immigrants. Of course changes need to be made to immigration laws, but also the sentiment needs to be changed amongst all.

[Claudius Gothicus]

Since there's no fascists around to battle your cosmopolitan views I'll be the first to say it :

''The integration of many Muslim communities into the Well-Developed European countries was done badly, or at least, with some flawed conceptions of how it's done in some areas''

http://www.gallup.com/poll/27397/Val...ims-Apart.aspx the major problems arise in terms of secular values, even though most Muslims are indeed connected with their national cultures they do feel opposed to the European nation's ''most secular like values''.

Also, there's a big problem with poverty and immigrants in some European countries(not that it's exclusively their fault like some crazy wackos try to paint) that adds a whole new aspect to the fascist reactions.

http://www.poverty.org.uk/reports/ethnicity.pdf

So yeah, that's a problem and I'm willing to debate it. Fascism in the form of BNP, EDL or Le Penn are another matter though those are total jerks that have to be monitored.

[Armenum]

Since there's no fascists around to battle your cosmopolitan views I'll be the first to say it :

''The integration of many Muslim communities into the Well-Developed European countries was done badly, or at least, with some flawed conceptions of how it's done''

http://www.gallup.com/poll/27397/Val...ims-Apart.aspx the major problems arise in terms of secular values, even though most Muslims are indeed connected with their national cultures they do feel opposed to the European nation's ''most secular like values''.

So yeah, that's a problem and I'm willing to debate it. Fascism in the form of BNP, EDL or Le Penn are another matter though those are total jerks that have to be monitored.

But to my view such Muslims would be even more opposed to a Europe where Christian values were implemented rather than secular. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I would see it. Many of these European countries with high immigration rates, have for a long time been rather cosmopolitan, especially the large cities. But more my concern is the fringe Fascists that utilise dangerous ideas to incite violence and hatred and think they have a responsibility in expelling the Muslims or other non-whites.

[Claudius Gothicus]

But to my view such Muslims would be even more opposed to a Europe where Christian values were implemented rather than secular. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I would see it. Many of these European countries with high immigration rates, have for a long time been rather cosmopolitan, especially the large cities. But more my concern is the fringe Fascists that utilise dangerous ideas to incite violence and hatred and think they have a responsibility in expelling the Muslims or other non-whites.

In combination with the poverty problems... the mix is a dangerous one during times of economic hardship.

Strong feelings in the air, the anxiety and frustration of living on welfare or unemployed, the narrow perception that ''immigrants live on welfare or took our jebs'', the few but vocal fundamentalist groups like Islam4UK and stuff like that gives a lot of fertile ground to extremist/fascist groups on the authoritarian side of the right spectrum.

Yeah, it's a phenomena but it happens, and there's always a scapegoat. The true workaround lies in the legitimacy of the State and how do citizens perceive it, that's why British Fascists in the UK during the prewar years were such a joke... people believed and trusted the parliamentary system.

[Tiwaz]

But to my view such Muslims would be even more opposed to a Europe where Christian values were implemented rather than secular. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I would see it.

You are ignoring something essential. That Christian Europe would be even more horrible for them does not change fact, that this Muslim group, which is quite large actually, still demands islamization of Europe. Because of their strong religious view, they do not accept anything but absolute capitulation to "Word of God".

How you were planning to solve THAT issue? There is no solution in such conflict which does not end in capitulation of one party and accepting values of other group.

Many of these European countries with high immigration rates, have for a long time been rather cosmopolitan, especially the large cities. But more my concern is the fringe Fascists that utilise dangerous ideas to incite violence and hatred and think they have a responsibility in expelling the Muslims or other non-whites.

And what is your response to general crimerates of certain immigrant groups? For example overrepresentation of small demographic groups in rape statistics in Finland...

Main problem here is that immigrants ARE causing problems and are refusing to change to fix this issue. If immigrants would integrate into society as it is, instead of demanding society to change to suit them, you will see what you perceive as "fascist" to rise. People resent being demanded to change their culture and identity in their native land.

Except I never chose the native population as aggressors. While there are obviously some immigrants who make mistakes, there is no excuse for these radicals to promote and carry out violent acts. Plus, don't give into to the Eurabia myth.

So what is your explanation for behavior of many islamic groups demanding adherence to Sharia for example in UK?
"There are some immigrants" does not hold water when for example group of 4% (people of foreign origin) can be responsible for up to 10-40% of rapes! This is reality in Finland. This is incompatible cultures meeting and one is taking aggressive means to try to force other to capitulate.

Of course most muslim immigrants are perfectly fine, but there is far too large portion who are not.

[Platon]

Fascism is now official even in the US. Not only is the US the nr.1 terror state in the world - now this:
The Senate passes a bill that allows the government to detain an American citizen indefinitely without a trial.


Jon Stewart about it here:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/we...ed-development

[Armenum]

The more attention is given to those groups the worse and better for them. The state should actively work to shun such Fascist groups and immigrants should try as hard as they can to ignore them. When those people see no one is reacting, they will most likely die down sooner or later.

[Claudius Gothicus]

The more attention is given to those groups the worse and better for them. The state should actively work to shun such Fascist groups and immigrants should try as hard as they can to ignore them. When those people see no one is reacting, they will most likely die down sooner or later.

Weimar Republic tried the same back in the 20's and it actually worked, but once the economic hardships came back the scapegoating and extremism returned as well.

We are not nearly as bad as the world was in terms of economics back in the 1930's but the possible tensions that might arise due to clashes are rather dysfunctional for what Europe should aim to be as a Continent. The main solution lies not only in ignoring them but also in monitoring their actions and on a macro scale legitimizing the task of the State as a plurality and freedom maintainer.

[Blaze86420]

What kind of question is that one about how moral homosexuality is; how is that an indicator of integration?

[Claudius Gothicus]

What kind of question is that one about how moral homosexuality is; how is that an indicator of integration?

It's an indicator of common beliefs on how to behave, common beliefs on how to behave tend to integrate communities through peaceful coexistence and mutual reassessment of correct/incorrect actions. Moral acceptance means being comfortable with the existence of said acts.

[Blaze86420]

What? Here's what I have in mind:
Homosexuality being a sin is a viewpoint shared by all the Abrahamic religions, so let's say a French Christian finds homosexuality immoral, does that mean that he/she is not integrated into society even though he's not an immigrant?

[Claudius Gothicus]

But they don't because most Christians in Europe have become significantly flexible on their exercise of religious morals and codes, a direct product of secularization.

Many muslims in Europe on the other hand still answer, morally speaking, in terms of religiously inspired dictates or at least do so in a strong correlation with social conservatism.

[Blaze86420]

I didn't understand anything past the word flexible, but that's not flexibility that's called ignoring your own religious teachings or simply not following the religion any more. Unless you're suggesting atheism or being non-religious is an indicator of integration I really don't see what the point of that question is.

[Claudius Gothicus]

I didn't understand anything past the word flexible,

Nice, I thought I could never beat myself again on cryptic writing.

but that's not flexibility that's called ignoring your own religious teachings or simply not following the religion any more.

No, that's called flexibility, to adapt and reconvert the Religious Dogma into a new interpretation that can be more liberal toward what becomes everyday events.

To say that modern Christians are not Christians anymore would be similar to claim that wahhabists are not Muslim, they are, only of another branch. Over the last 600 years Christianity suffered a rather high amount of shakedowns, and dogma was flexibilized in order to deal with that and so was actual religious practice as well.

Let's separate the 2, religious practice is the actual exercise of religious thinking, religious dogma is what has been institutionalized. I'm pretty sure a majority in Europe still consider themselves Christian only that the power of the Christian dogma has dissipated in many areas of everyday life and as a product dogma itself has changed.

Unless you're suggesting atheism or being non-religious is an indicator of integration I really don't see what the point of that question is.

Common beliefs are an indicator of social integration, when a distinct religious group holds views on specific issues that heavily differ from those of the general population then you have a case of a not fully integrated group, at least on that aspect.

The article gives a clear example of actually integrated beliefs when it talks about the veil's perception in Germany

''...
Of all the religious symbols asked about, the face veil is the most controversial. Majorities of the general public in France (64%) and the United Kingdom (55%) think successful integration requires removing the veil; only 13% of London's Muslims and 18% of Paris' Muslims agree. In Germany, the numbers are closer: 49% of the general public versus 43% of Berlin's Muslims say this is necessary...''

When the numbers of a community match the numbers of the general population, on an specific issue, you have an integrated belief, at least on said aspect.

[Vizsla]

I for one am a deep hater of the fascist ideologies regarding Nazism, white supremacy, and often times stemming from that a hatred and dehumanisation of anybody that doesn't fit their disillusioned category of people. Often times, such Fascist ideals have also yielded Islamaphobia, another ideology I despise, especially in areas with large populations of Muslim immigrants. Unfortunately, with the tough economic times, demographic crisis, and high immigration, conditions have led for such extreme right wing ideas to spread, not by a lot, but steadily. I believe that the dangers of certain far-right groups that preach hate against anybody not like them should be considered.

I for one am a deep hater of hateful leftist ideologies often stemming from a hatred and dehumanisation of anybody whose beliefs do not accord with their own.
Often times such socialist ideals have produced a class war mentality, another ideology I despise, especially in areas with large populations of unemployed (and immigrants). Unfortunately, with the tough economic times and high levels of immigration, conditions have been ripe for extreme anti-capitalist ideas to spread. I believe that the dangers of certain far-left groups that preach hate against anybody not like them should be considered.

[hellheaven1987]

Fascism generally does not have the white supremacy elements inside, people just like to mix up Fascism and Nazism, which are quite different in some aspects.

[Diamat]

Fascism generally does not have the white supremacy elements inside, people just like to mix up Fascism and Nazism, which are quite different in some aspects.

Exactly.

Lord Mov, your understanding of fascism is distorted. Fascism does not require racism nor the idea of opposing things like homosexuality. Neither is fascism necessarily a conservative thing...it all depends on your perspective. Don't you find it strange that in the US conservatives often attack liberals (such as Obama) for being fascist? It's because people's general understanding of fascism is highly distorted. The same goes for Communism.

[Armenum]

Exactly.

Lord Mov, your understanding of fascism is distorted. Fascism does not require racism nor the idea of opposing things like homosexuality. Neither is fascism necessarily a conservative thing...it all depends on your perspective. Don't you find it strange that in the US conservatives often attack liberals (such as Obama) for being fascist? It's because people's general understanding of fascism is highly distorted. The same goes for Communism.

Well I never brought up the issue of homosexuality. I see Fascism as simply an ideology, chauvinist in nature, that strives to create a society, usually authoritarian society, in which the members of society are connected by a common blood or ancestry. That "connected by a common blood or ancestry" is the real dangerous and distorted side of Fascism I find. Fascism is intended on dividing people not by economic status, intellect, etc. but based simply on one's race or blood. All of this can have terrible consequences, but Fascism today is also used to stoke fear and hatred against immigrants, especially Muslim immigrants.

I for one am a deep hater of hateful leftist ideologies often stemming from a hatred and dehumanisation of anybody whose beliefs do not accord with their own.
Often times such socialist ideals have produced a class war mentality, another ideology I despise, especially in areas with large populations of unemployed (and immigrants). Unfortunately, with the tough economic times and high levels of immigration, conditions have been ripe for extreme anti-capitalist ideas to spread. I believe that the dangers of certain far-left groups that preach hate against anybody not like them should be considered.

Far-left wing groups are also dangerous (any extremist group is dangerous) but that's something to discuss for another topic.

Weimar Republic tried the same back in the 20's and it actually worked, but once the economic hardships came back the scapegoating and extremism returned as well.

We are not nearly as bad as the world was in terms of economics back in the 1930's but the possible tensions that might arise due to clashes are rather dysfunctional for what Europe should aim to be as a Continent. The main solution lies not only in ignoring them but also in monitoring their actions and on a macro scale legitimizing the task of the State as a plurality and freedom maintainer.

There's an interesting connection between economic hardship and extremism. People often find it easier to lay the blame of economic hardship not on themselves, but on others. A psychological tactic that's hard dire consequences.