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  1. #1
    SeniorBatavianHorse's Avatar Tribunus Vacans
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    Default Sassanian War Elephants

    Valentinian Victor raised an interesting question in the Persian Preview post about the use of elelphants under the early Sassanian rulers. I thought it might be interesting to open a thread here to debate this in our usual informative and passionate manner!

    Let me be blunt then: there is no conclusive evidence that the Sassanians who took over the Pathian empire used elephants in a war footing until the rise of Shapur II. There IS anachronistic evidence in the form of the HA, Armenian annals and even Tabari but all 3 of the above mentioned sources are either at best problemmatic or easily shown to be anachronistic.

    However, this gives rise to the interesting question of when exactly DID the Sassanians deploy elephants either on the field of battle or in siege operations? In the early years after the defeat of the Parthian clans - who did not use elephants - we drift in a sea of uncertainty regarding elephant deployment until we reach the documented shores of Shapur II via Ammianus and others. On one side, lies a newly formed Sassanian state which has taken over almost wholesale the Parthian patrimony while on the other shore stands a Sassanian state now self-proclaiming itself the heir of the old Persian Empire. In that move, elephants re-emerge but precisely when is difficult to pinpoint.

    I do have an idea when - and under who - these magnificent beasts reappeared but can not offer proof - only evidence.

    Let me repeat the sources for elephants in this mod's period:

    The HA when it talks about Severus Alexander - but we know this is a fiction or at best written long after the events and therefore projecting Sassanian war elephants back to an earlier age.

    The Annales of al-Tabari refer to Shapur I, the son of Ardashir, using 'richly-caparisoned' war elephants against Hatra but again the poetic fragment that al-Tabari quotes has not had its providence verified and so must be viewed with caution as al-Tabari wrote over six hundred years later.

    The Armenian history written by Moses of Khorene states that the Armenian King Tiridates (during the reign of Diolcetian) 'personally scattered the ranks of the elephants' - but again this account was written long after the events narrated.

    One of the chronica mentions that Diocletian and Galerius celebrated a victory with a triumph through the streets of Rome that had 13 elephants but there are no accounts of elephants in battle - one scholar at least wonders if these elephants were not included merely to add an eastern aspect to the triumph.

    It is Libanius who suggests a real clue as to when the elephants re-emerged onto the battlefield and from that point onwards we may state with candour that the Sassanians DID provide elephants in war - however we also cannot prove when exactly this happened or that they did NOT use them as early as Shapur I!
    Last edited by SeniorBatavianHorse; December 06, 2011 at 09:32 AM.

  2. #2
    Gäiten's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Sassanian War Elephants

    Given the source it is very scarce and none gives us any reliable claim that they used war elephant.

    However, I believe they used war elephants from the late mid-3rd century on. Why? Because they were fighting and subdueing the Kushans who used them. That they captured some and Kushan auxiliaries in Sassanian service used them.
    However, that would have been only small numbers.

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    SeniorBatavianHorse's Avatar Tribunus Vacans
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    Default Re: Sassanian War Elephants

    Quite possible, yes. It is difficult however to find accurate sources which confirm when exactly the elephants were marshalled. My guess is under Shapur II within the context of the war-effort he undertook which Libanius writes about. I would imagine that prior to that elephants were localised forces in the east. Shapur II then introduced them on a larger scale across the main Sassanian lands in preparation for his planned war against Constantius. Proof is lacking however and as with all conjecture there is just enough evidence either way to argue for or against here!

  4. #4
    Renatus's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Sassanian War Elephants

    There appear to be war elephants on the Arch of Galerius.
    http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/nic...x/IMG_0184.jpg

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    SeniorBatavianHorse's Avatar Tribunus Vacans
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    Default Re: Sassanian War Elephants

    I believe from the image and the other wild beast in it, that the sculpture represents the triumphal procession described earlier in which elephants were presented (13 all told) to symbolise an eastern/Persian motif? It rests at the base of the Arch after the image celebrating the unity of the Tetrarchy and so does not show actual 'war-footage', as it were - 6 charioteers (agitores VI) were also presented in that triumphal parade, no doubt alluding to the ancient Persian chariots again as an oriental trope.

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    Renatus's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Sassanian War Elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorBatavianHorse View Post
    I believe from the image and the other wild beast in it, that the sculpture represents the triumphal procession described earlier in which elephants were presented (13 all told) to symbolise an eastern/Persian motif? It rests at the base of the Arch after the image celebrating the unity of the Tetrarchy and so does not show actual 'war-footage', as it were - 6 charioteers (agitores VI) were also presented in that triumphal parade, no doubt alluding to the ancient Persian chariots again as an oriental trope.
    I take your point about the triumph; it is certainly not a battle scene. The full sequence can be seen here.

    About 30 years ago, I went to Thessaloniki and made an almost complete photographic survey of the Arch. I shall have to try to find my photographs and see if they show anything significant.

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    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Sassanian War Elephants

    We must remember that the Sassanids weren't 100% similar to Parthians. After they slew the king, they had to conquer the doomed empire.

    Either way, Shapur I conquered the western part of Kushan, so I'd assume he had access to elephants.

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    SeniorBatavianHorse's Avatar Tribunus Vacans
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    Default Re: Sassanian War Elephants

    Yes, but the issue here is not conjecture but what proof, if any, do we have that elephants were used against the Romans (and others) with the rise of Sassanian power? I am not arguing against the mod using them (quite the opposite as I think they should be in!) but only listing and debating the sources.

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    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Sassanian War Elephants

    I know, yes.

    I don't recall contemporary sources attributing elephants to them, but then again contemporary sources are not always available.

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    SeniorBatavianHorse's Avatar Tribunus Vacans
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    Default Re: Sassanian War Elephants

    That would be interesting, Renatus. Thanks!

  11. #11

    Default Re: Sassanian War Elephants

    Having Elephants on a monumental work or on a diptych is not really an indication that they were used in warfare. There are depictions of elephants on several Late Roman monumental works and on one well known diptych, only problem is that the elephants are in the employ of the Roman army!!!

    If your really interested in elephants used by the Sasanids then you need to find a copy of this-

    Iranica Antiqua,
    vol. XLII, 2007
    doi: 10.2143AA.42.0.2017880

    THE RISE OE THE SASSANIAN ELEPHANT CORPS:
    ELEPHANTS AND THE LATER ROMAN EMPIRE
    BY
    Michael B. CHARLES
    (Queensland University of Technology)

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    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Sassanian War Elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentinian Victor View Post
    Having Elephants on a monumental work or on a diptych is not really an indication that they were used in warfare. There are depictions of elephants on several Late Roman monumental works and on one well known diptych, only problem is that the elephants are in the employ of the Roman army!!!

    If your really interested in elephants used by the Sasanids then you need to find a copy of this-


    Iranica Antiqua,
    vol. XLII, 2007

    doi: 10.2143AA.42.0.2017880


    THE RISE OE THE SASSANIAN ELEPHANT CORPS:

    ELEPHANTS AND THE LATER ROMAN EMPIRE
    BY
    Michael B. CHARLES





    (Queensland University of Technology)

    Interesting book !if only I could find and/or read it!
    What does Mr. CHARLES say about Sassanians War Elephants?
    I can imagine that he doesn't show any evidence about the use of these animals in Shapur I age. (because your question was about the evidences of their use in battle aginst the Romans in the second half of the IIIc.)

    At the end, can we say: No evidences = No elephants?
    Or better: can we say that the burden of proof is up to those who belive that the Persians used the war-elephants?
    Or is it a matter of interpretation of the few evidences that we have?

  13. #13
    julianus heraclius's Avatar The Philosopher King
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    Default Re: Sassanian War Elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentinian Victor View Post
    Having Elephants on a monumental work or on a diptych is not really an indication that they were used in warfare. There are depictions of elephants on several Late Roman monumental works and on one well known diptych, only problem is that the elephants are in the employ of the Roman army!!!

    If your really interested in elephants used by the Sasanids then you need to find a copy of this-


    Iranica Antiqua,
    vol. XLII, 2007

    doi: 10.2143AA.42.0.2017880
    THE RISE OE THE SASSANIAN ELEPHANT CORPS:
    ELEPHANTS AND THE LATER ROMAN EMPIRE
    BY
    Michael B. CHARLES

    (Queensland University of Technology)

    Gentlemen, this article is available in our Library:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=224786

    There is also an article called Elephants in Warfare in Late Antiquity.

    Avatar & Signature by Joar

  14. #14
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Sassanian War Elephants

    Hehehe
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    BTW, guys, could the words "Pilban" and "Elephantes" be corruptions of a common root word? Some Indian word consisting of two syllables, the first ending with"eh/ih". probably ambiguous, and the second being "an".

    After that Greeks adding an additional "e" and the Persians - a "p", to suit their respective languages better.
    Last edited by Blatta Optima Maxima; December 06, 2011 at 02:51 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Sassanian War Elephants

    Just type this into google, it could not be simpler!

    Iranica Antiqua,
    vol. XLII, 2007

  16. #16
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Sassanian War Elephants

    Internet!! Thanks guys! I think the books like heavy volumes of paper!!! (I fell like an old man a little... "Rincoglionito"...how to say in Englis?...fuked up!)

    And now also Divus JH shows how right was the feeling about myself!

  17. #17
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Sassanian War Elephants

    Interestingly enough, one source in Greek describes the Persian formation as "phalanx", with elephants and "hoplites" being stationed side by side in a dense wall.

    This implies two things - elephants as a siege tower thing, and Persians having infantry capable enough to be described as "oplitai".


    P.S. That section was originally written a man named Flavius Claudius Julianus Augustus, btw.
    Last edited by Blatta Optima Maxima; December 06, 2011 at 03:01 PM.

  18. #18
    SeniorBatavianHorse's Avatar Tribunus Vacans
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    Default Re: Sassanian War Elephants

    Lol - no idea about the etymology! Nice idea though!

  19. #19
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Sassanian War Elephants

    It kinda struck me in the head when I was slaughtering some hephthalites with elephants - I screamed something along the lines of "Goddamit, pîlbân, wtf are you doing!", and I figured it sounded similar to "elephant".

    OTOH, I am starting to wonder if ~"Pîll" is not the original name, with Greeks corrupting the plural, "Pîlbân".

  20. #20
    SeniorBatavianHorse's Avatar Tribunus Vacans
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    Default Re: Sassanian War Elephants

    This any good?

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