Information overload and hedonism will surely end democracy as we know it

[Ummon]

It's a simple line of thought:

1) life gets everyday more complicated because of technology, overpopulation and urbanization (it takes now more than twentyfour years to form a citizen, and the process is characterized by a major amount of failures).

2) politicians get elected on false promises, because the problems of today to be resolved require unpopular stances and actions, which wouldn't get them elected or elected again.

3) the accent of our society on satisfaction and pleasure without merit, and the progressive downfall of personal and social responsibility, is a factor promoting neo-luddism and local egoism, whereas such phoenomena cause opposition to any central policy, positive or not: this promotes anarchy.

4) Alternative ideas compete today in a situation where those who uphold them, mostly do not know them or understand them: this causes slogans to be used instead of reasoning.

This causes two consequences:

a) people who have power and are successful, will become even more so, and tend to ensure that democracy does not get in their way to further power and success.

b) people who should uphold their democratic rights do not care, do not know, are not strong enough and organized enough to do so.

On the other hand, violent opposition is not an option. It will result infact, merely in further tendency to oppression and dictatorship, because people want security more than freedom.

[Tom Paine]

We cannot there is information overload. Especially when what we really see is actually not information but mis and disinformation; spin and propaganda. We are not informed about what matters but rather about what does not matter; the scandals we hear about are petty and immaterial too much of the time and actual matters of the government far too little. This is not information overload but drainage by lack of information.

[Ummon]

Propaganda is a consequence of information overload.

If people's average intelligence + people's average culture < amount of energy invested by various powers to hide truth

Then lies spread and truth remains hidden. It is impossible to discern what information is worthwile today, for the average person. This reduces the level of culture.

[Tom Paine]

Propaganda is a consequence of information overload.

Propaganda only works when we don't have access to information, the exact opposite.

If people's average intelligence + people's average culture < amount of energy invested by various powers to hide truth

Then lies spread and truth remains hidden. It is impossible to discern what information is worthwile today, for the average person. This reduces the level of culture.

It doesn't reduce culture, it reduces democracy instead, a far more insidious and problematic, eh, problem. We see scandals which catch attention but say nothing and ignore those which do say important matters but aren't about sex and thus go ignored...

[Ummon]

Propaganda only works when we don't have access to information, the exact opposite.

Not at all. Propaganda works in many subtle ways:

- by providing false and misleading information one wants to hear
- by providing too much information for someone to elaborate
- by providing too little information or hiding something as irrelevant
- by not telling something at all

It doesn't reduce culture, it reduces democracy instead, a far more insidious and problematic, eh, problem. We see scandals which catch attention but say nothing and ignore those which do say important matters but aren't about sex and thus go ignored...

A decrease in culture, reduces democracy as well.

[Tom Paine]

Not at all. Propaganda works in many subtle ways:

- by providing false and misleading information one wants to hear
- by providing too much information for someone to elaborate
- by providing too little information or hiding something as irrelevant
- by not telling something at all

-Not really happening widestream [exception: BNP]; misleading is rare because facts ren't used, just emotional appeal.
-Not happening, in fact the reverse is.
-Yes, yes, yes. However that isn't propaganda, its information control, and the two are different.
-See above.

A decrease in culture, reduces democracy as well.

Yes, but its not an inherent decrease in culture.

[Ummon]

-Not really happening widestream [exception: BNP]; misleading is rare because facts ren't used, just emotional appeal.
-Not happening, in fact the reverse is.
-Yes, yes, yes. However that isn't propaganda, its information control, and the two are different.
-See above.

Yes, but its not an inherent decrease in culture.

Are you sure?

Your governement is an example of the first kind of propaganda.

About the second, I would trust your judgement if you would spam less. Infact, you seem to be addicted to that sort of propganda. :wink:

Today it's not possible to control information. Infact, chaos stems from irrelevant information, not relevant one.

I see.

[Aristophanes]

You guys might want to define 'information'.

Here I'll do it.[straight from the medical dictionary]

1. Knowledge derived from study, experience, or instruction.
2. Knowledge of specific events or situations that has been gathered or received by communication; intelligence or news. See Synonyms at knowledge.
3. A collection of facts or data: statistical information.
4. The act of informing or the condition of being informed; communication of knowledge: Safety instructions are provided for the information of our passengers.
5. Computer Science. Processed, stored, or transmitted data.
6. A numerical measure of the uncertainty of an experimental outcome.
7. Law. A formal accusation of a crime made by a public officer rather than by grand jury indictment.

I guess the real question is: can something be unfactual or incompletely factual and still be 'information'? I think it can, but dictionary.com definitions, and indeed many other definitions, are vague as HELL!!!!!!

[Ummon]

Information can be unfactual, false, and completely invented, and yet remain information.

[Tom Paine]

Information can be unfactual, false, and completely invented, and yet remain information.

I disagree; it at that point is not information, but misinformation.

[Sidmen]

Nothing has to be true to be information. Thats called False Information (Or wrong info)

[Ummon]

Misinformation is just a subset of information.

[Erik]

Misinformation is just a subset of information.

For a computer-engineering POV I agree.
Information doesn't need to tell the truth, it just has to tell something.

[Tom Paine]

No, its false or falsified "information".

[Ummon]

Your concept of information does not match the scientific definition of it. Information is anything which carries meaning, and this doesn't in any way imply that the meaning must be true.

Gathering knowledge is not collecting information infact: it is collecting and validating information. A process costing a lot of energy, and requiring competence.

[Sidmen]

I believe the last 7 posts were saying the exact same thing, we can move on now

[Aristophanes]

I believe the last 7 posts were saying the exact same thing, we can move on now

Ummm, nope. There's legitimate disagreement here.

[Flavius Silvanus]

I don't think our problems with hedonism and general laziness are a result of technological advances.

The Romans became just as hedonistic and lazy after the defeat of their greatest enemy.

[RusskiSoldat]

The major flaw of democracy is that it is firmly rooted in populism.
Unless you want to lose elections, you can't make tough, unpopular and extreme decisions, not matter how good they may be.
And let's face it, the general populace is more influenced by pretty colors and catchy slogans than by cold, hard, cynical truth.

[the Black Prince]

russki here highlights the biggest flaw of democracy... not to mention that someone who wants to camapgin about getting elected, wants to tell everyone how good he is, and how great he'llbe is probably someone you want furthest from the reins of power...

people have become selfdisenfranchised. so used to be lied to, and decieved, so used to scandel after scandel, and knowing that each politician is probably as corrup or poor as the one he's replacing that they just don't care anymore.


however, i disagree with ummons 2nd consequence.
every so often, a government goes beyond even the level of corruption now tolerated, and does something so outrageous to the culture involved that it invokes mass, if sometimes annonymous, outcry against it. despite the total lack of mainstream media coverage, the outcry against the so called "Abolotion of Parliament Bill" actually did result in heavy modificaton of the bill in question, and the government backing down...