DCI: Tôl Acharn 1.2.4 released 12th Aug 2013 - unleash the mighty Dúnedain Counter-Invasions for TATW 3.2

[Ngugi]

True enough

[Ngugi]

Update: new images in the OP from our latest test.
Still both fine-tuning and big changes remain but it felt fun to share some of our progress

[Baron Samedi]

Great! It is beginning to look better and better. All the little changes make up for a big difference in the end.

[Minas Moth]

great work guys...

i really like it... i wonder what strat_map model will you use for the "invokers"?something like gandalf (drifter type), or more general like look? this is model i'm much eager to see...

[Ngugi]

great work guys...

i really like it... i wonder what strat_map model will you use for the "invokers"?something like gandalf (drifter type), or more general like look? this is model i'm much eager to see...

Thanks!

Our intention has been to use a mildly modificated heretic priest, least to begin with. Perhaps we get inspired by some other model along the way, still most things aint cut in stone

[TNZ]

Ngugi: This really is a great idea and will add something quite special to a campaign.

Actually, I wonder if you could take it one step further. what I'm thinking is this, if the player is playing as Rohan , and Gondor calls a ’Tôl Acharn’, a historical event pops up asking the player if they wish to join that ’Tôl Acharn’. If the player hits yes, Rohan’s religion is changed, allowing them to take part in the ’Tôl Acharn’. It is then changed back when the ’Tôl Acharn’ has ended. Changing their religion would have no game impact, other than letting them take part in a ’Tôl Acharn’.

One thing I never liked about armies involved in such endeavours is the fact that they get a movement bonus which, if you think about it, doesn't make any sense at all. That's why I always go into the ‘descr_campaign_db’ file and change the ‘<movement_points_modifier float="2.0"/>’ to 1.25. That way, they move at about the same speeds as a regular army.

[KnightsTemplar]

Just check out the new update screenshots:
Seems now Eriador have Dunedain culture?
And the 'floating' star upon the banner seems to be a little bit awkward.
Maybe give it a background, make it looks like a banner, like the invasion one?

[Ngugi]

@ TNZ
Nice to hear it will be looked foreward too

While it in other form has been up to discussion so far it been ruled out as its supposed to be a Dúnedain-option.
Though, in case it was scripted so that Rohan could continue to recrute and build as usual that would be very benefitial from s strategic point of view. The distances between Gondor and Arnor otherwise somwhat risk to limit the impact from the Acharn joint venture. Rohan which is closer would help to give it more of a 'punch'. Lorewise it could be attested to the Oath of Eorl.
We'll take a look at it once we got the basic settled I think.

On the movement issue - with lower movement rates Invasions/Acharns-armies will reach targets later and due to that success or failiure will take longer time, causeing fewer Invasions/Acharn during a campaign.
Figure we leave that up to each player but a description on how to edit it could be put in the OP once we release non the less, thats a good idea.


@ KnightsTemplar
No, Eriador got Northmen, Dúnedain comes at first when Arnor is restored. Its a vanilla 2.1 issue, that the name remains Eriador after the restoration.
Honestly I cheated a bit to show a black banner for them too hehe, took the screen shot on Gandalf while playing Arnor, because 2.1 dont change AI banner colors either. AFAIK all of this will be fixed in 3.0?

We began giving it a background but then chose to just make it a single Star - because Invasion armies just have a single Eye with no background above theirs. An adaption from our part and it do looks nice ingame

[Withwnar]

if the player is playing as Rohan , and Gondor calls a ’Tôl Acharn’, a historical event pops up asking the player if they wish to join that ’Tôl Acharn’. If the player hits yes, Rohan’s religion is changed, allowing them to take part in the ’Tôl Acharn’.

Brilliant idea TNZ! +rep

[TNZ]

Ngugi: I think one could sell it, as a natural extension of the Oath of Eorl. Switching Rohan’s religion backwards and forwards will have no impact on their development: they will recruit units and construct buildings as normal.

The reason why is would have no effect on the faction is related to the way Medieval II handles religion, which is completely different to how it was handled in Rome. Too put it simply, in Medieval II a religious building will continue to convert a settlement’s population to its particular religion sect, completely independently of whatever the faction's official religion is.

Withwnar: I think this should do the trick:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

;###### Rohan Joins Tôl Acharn #######

declare_counter tol_acharn_gondor
declare_counter tol_acharn_rohan

	monitor_event GeneralJoinCrusade FactionType sicily
		and I_NumberOfSettlements milan > 0
		and DiplomaticStanceFromFaction milan = Allied
            	and I_LocalFaction milan
		and I_CompareCounter tol_acharn_gondor = 0
		set_counter tol_acharn_gondor 1
	end_monitor

	monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType milan
		and I_LocalFaction milan
		and I_CompareCounter tol_acharn_gondor = 1
		historic_event rohan_joins_tol_acharn true factions { milan, }
		set_counter tol_acharn_gondor 2
	end_monitor

	monitor_conditions I_EventCounter rohan_joins_tol_acharn_accepted = 1
		set_religion milan islam
		set_counter tol_acharn_rohan 1
		set_event_counter rohan_joins_tol_acharn_accepted 0
	end_monitor

	monitor_conditions I_EventCounter rohan_joins_tol_acharn_declined = 1
		set_event_counter rohan_joins_tol_acharn_declined 0
	end_monitor

	monitor_event CrusadeEnds IsJihad
		if I_CompareCounter tol_acharn_rohan > 0
		set_religion milan northmen
		set_counter tol_acharn_rohan 0
	end_if
		if I_CompareCounter tol_acharn_gondor > 0
		set_counter tol_acharn_gondor 0
	end_if
	end_monitor

And this one should let you test the basic concept:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

;###### Rohan Joins Tôl Acharn Test Script #######

declare_counter tol_acharn_gondor
declare_counter tol_acharn_rohan

	monitor_event GeneralJoinCrusade FactionType sicily
		and I_NumberOfSettlements milan > 0
		and DiplomaticStanceFromFaction milan = Allied
            	and I_LocalFaction milan
		and I_CompareCounter tol_acharn_gondor = 0
		set_counter tol_acharn_gondor 1
	end_monitor

	monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType milan
		and I_LocalFaction milan
		and I_CompareCounter tol_acharn_gondor = 1
		set_religion milan islam
		set_counter tol_acharn_rohan 1
		set_counter tol_acharn_gondor 2
	end_monitor

	monitor_event CrusadeEnds IsJihad
		if I_CompareCounter tol_acharn_rohan > 0
		set_religion milan northmen
		set_counter tol_acharn_rohan 0
	end_if
		if I_CompareCounter tol_acharn_gondor > 0
		set_counter tol_acharn_gondor 0
	end_if
	end_monitor

[Withwnar]

Thanks TNZ. We had already made the change and it is working very well. I had also run some tests to see how a religion change affects 'culture' growth and it is as you described. Though they do suffer from a cultural unrest penalty; something that I'm pretty sure I can counter in the EDB.

Thanks again for the suggestion. Such a simple scripting addition that throws wide open the possibilities. Frankly I was surprised by how little 'damage' it does to the faction. You would think that changing a faction's religion like this would throw the game mechanics into turmoil, with many nasty side effects.

EDIT: ah, I see that you're using GeneralJoinCrusade to gain access to the calling faction. Interesting. I was using CrusadeCalled (Starts?) which does not export it. I hadn't tackled the alliance side of it yet for this reason. Great: I might use that method, or something similar. Cheers.

[Ngugi]

Thanks once more TNZ, you have given us invaluable inspiration.
Withwnar jumped at it yesterday, testing his way, though it became now a pan-Men ability. If allied to Gondor and/or Arnor then Rohan, Eriador and Dale may join in. If we wstick to it, and it seems we will, still have to look over details and the lore logic (which we consider us to be able to back up) and it all seems quite epic. ^___^

EDIT: Ha, got snipered by With'

[Baron Samedi]

You would think that changing a faction's religion like this would throw the game mechanics into turmoil, with many nasty side effects.

And what about the most important aspect: recruitment conditions? I take it these will be changed and activated through event counters in the script? That is at least what I had to do when implementing the faction conversion feature in my compilation. Lots and lots of work though to implement that. I know jihads aren't permanent, but they can last for quite some turns right = cripple a factions recruitment possibilities?

[Ngugi]

And what about the most important aspect: recruitment conditions? I take it these will be changed and activated through event counters in the script? That is at least what I had to do when implementing the faction conversion feature in my compilation. Lots and lots of work though to implement that. I know jihads aren't permanent, but they can last for quite some turns right?

Certainly, the very most important, because of the timeframe indeed.
It is by Withwnar reported (and updated in the OP) that the faction do not encounter any problems to recrute their units while at an Acharn.

[Withwnar]

That's right. Recruitment conditions are based on faction type and region religion level, neither of which is affected by a switch to another religion. So long as the original religion conversion buildings remain present - not replaced by new-religion equivalents - then the original religion continues to grow in that region. Or more to the point: it doesn't start to grow in the new-religion direction.

If any recruitment conditions were "factions { northmen }" then that would be a problem but none are.

@Baron
The fact that you had to change yours makes me nervous: something I'm overlooking? I assume (hope) that your religion conversion was permanent which in turn meant that you had to destroy the original religion conversion buildings?

[TNZ]

Withwnar: I would have thought that switching a faction’s religion on its own would, at most, result in a cultural unrest penalty in the 40s. It might creep a little bit higher: I think that's caused by the party level of the settlement’s governor. If you were actually converting the faction to the religion you switched them to, you then would then, as Baron Samedi said, need to do a whole lot more to get it to work.

Ngugi: The army that King Eldacar raised in the North during the civil war would, to me anyway, seem to provide a good historical precedent for allowing the men of the North to take part in a Tôl Acharn.

[Ngugi]

As soon as With' jumped at it like a hungry wolf (dingo?) and could confirm some good results we're all game! Lorewise there's lot to lean at, so we'll see all Northmen factions, if allied right, participate in the mighty Tôl Acharn

[Withwnar]

Withwnar: I would have thought that switching a faction’s religion on its own would, at most, result in a cultural unrest penalty in the 40s. It might creep a little bit higher: I think that's caused by the party level of the settlement’s governor.

I'm seeing 20-30% but I haven't tried it without a governor. Thanks, I'll take a look.

...

Ah, yes, governor does play a part. Looking at Edoras...

Pre-switch:
With/without governor = 5%

Post-switch:
With governor = 35%
Without governor = 25%

This region starts off with 8% dunedain (islam) culture so yes, I expect that unrest could shift up a bit from here as dunedain culture is converted away. And possibly depending on governor traits/effects also, as I think you are implying (not sure what you mean by "party level").

[TNZ]

And possibly depending on governor traits/effects also, as I think you are implying (not sure what you mean by "party level").

I think that's caused by the piety level of the settlement’s governor. If you were actually converting the faction to the religion you switched them to, you then would then, as Baron Samedi said, need to do a whole lot more to get it to work.

.

[Withwnar]

Oh, "piety" level. Typo. Got it.

If you were actually converting the faction to the religion you switched them to, you then would then, as Baron Samedi said, need to do a whole lot more to get it to work.

Yes, understood.