Creation - silly i hear you say?

[rez]

Well im bored and no ones criticising my new Persian thread in the VV so im going to take it out on God. And about time too

Okey dokey lets see what i can work with here.

Premise 1 - God is the greatest concievable being. he is utterly perfect, omnipotent and omniscient. He needs absolutely nothing and to put it bluntly - hes the big dawg.

Premise 2 - Before we were created God existed

Both these premises are argued from Christian teachings and theology. (specifically Anselm but all the christians love the perfect god theory)

Now boys and girls (lol lord knows it shouldnt be a plural... if that) for the fun part - concentrate!

Why in the seven circles of hell would god create us? Creation denotes neccesity. God is a being which does not Need anything. if he were to need something he would not be perfect.

Surely if god were perfect he could exist by himself in the utter perfection of himself. Truly there is nothing to explain why a supposedly perfect being felt he had to change his pattern of existence. For change denotes a lack of perfection.

So what we have is

1 - An imperfect God
2 - No God at all

take your pick hotshots, eithers good with me.

But personally i like the idea of an imperfect God, just looking at his character is enough to see it. But thats another story right?

- Rez

[Kscott]

Why does creation denote need exactly? I see no logic for this assumption.

[rez]

We have a supposedly perfect being existing by itself.

surely if he were perfect nothing would need to change

[Sétanta]

We have a supposedly perfect being existing by itself.

surely if he were perfect nothing would need to change

Maybe he just felt like it?

He doesn't need anything, but what does he want?

[God]

We have a supposedly perfect being existing by itself.

surely if he were perfect nothing would need to change

Wouldn't a perfect being want to give others life? It seems like a nice thing to do...

[Spiff]

Its possible that God created us and thus became perfect, by some bizzare logic.

God can surely act without losing his perfection? You make him sound like a brittle piece of glass, if you add to it, it shatters.

Besides you could argue God is the most perfect thing that exists anywhere, creating man would just as easily make him more perfect, not less.

[Kscott]

We have a supposedly perfect being existing by itself.

surely if he were perfect nothing would need to change

This perfect God felt that it would be good to share his love with others. To be honest there are many reasons you could think that God wanted creation and every theist would prolly tell you differently. The end of the line is that perfection doesnt mean that creation was unnecesary. IF you were perfect would you not want to share your glory with others?

[Richard the Lionheart]

We have a supposedly perfect being existing by itself.

surely if he were perfect nothing would need to change

You expect us to be able to comprehend the reasons as to why got created the world/universe, etc?

These types of things are beyond our mortal capacities of understanding.

[gigagaia]

You expect us to be able to comprehend the reasons as to why got created the world/universe, etc?

These types of things are beyond our mortal capacities of understanding.

No, I think he expects us to understand the logical failings of the arguments that "prove" the existence of God or establish how things work in the Christian framework.
Logically, if God was perfect, then there was no need for him to create anything else. Perfection denotes completion, and yet he found a need to create the universe, humanity and all. How can these two be consistent?

[Richard the Lionheart]

Logically, if God was perfect, then there was no need for him to create anything else.
Perfection denotes completion, and yet he found a need to create the universe, humanity and all. How can these two be consistent?

But human judgement in regards to such situations is utterly worthless. These types of things are beyond our understanding.

[rez]

a perfect being does not want.

he has everything.

"Maybe he just felt like it?"

what because he was bored?! perfection doesnt get bored. boredom denotes a negative state

[Denny Crane!]

I second that creation implies... well nothing actually. Creativity can be just for the sake of it.

Peter

[rez]

Again why should a perfect being need to do something for the sake of it?

and if you really want to go down that road it doesnt imply the all loving well thought out master plan that God supposedly has

But these others didnt exist. It doesnt work that way. if others existed then yes but he was just by himself in all his glory.

are you saying he created everyone so that he could love and be loved?

This means God yearns to do something - this does not denote perfection

edit: oops, i could swear there was a post in between! sorry mods!

Double posts merged. /Prox

[Kscott]

Again why should a perfect being need to do something for the sake of it?

again why do you assume there was a need to? God wanted to.

This means God yearns to do something - this does not denote perfection

again I dont see how want is bad. Coveting etc are considered sins, but want itself certainly is not.

[rez]

Perfection does not want. Its as simple as that.

if he is utterly perfect he cannot want anything as he should already have it.

im not saying "want" is bad. but you certainly shouldnt want if you are perfect. it goes against the very definition of perfection.

[Denny Crane!]

Perfection does not want. Its as simple as that.

if he is utterly perfect he cannot want anything as he should already have IT.

Maybe humankind is part of IT?

Peter

[imthefrgt10]

god exists perfect,maybe not,why create beings that would denounce your existance therefore he is imperfect...

[Kscott]

Perfection does not want. Its as simple as that.

if he is utterly perfect he cannot want anything as he should already have it.

So your saying God already had creation? Thats what I get from following htat logic.

Another view one could have is that God simply wasnt complete without us. The Creator needed creation. This is one view that could say God wasnt perfect without us.


My true view is this. Your taking the word perfect to definitions Christians don't intend to use it for. By Perfect Christians mean that God is sinless. I don't see how this can be seen as a flaw when you say God wanted Creation. Want is not a sin so God would still be sinless. So it doesnt touch the concept of Godly perfection at all. Now you do have a point that God isnt perfect by the dictionary definition, but I still think there are some counter-points to that. However, being a Christian I see that very irrelevant because the definition of perfect you are using is not what Christians use the term for.

[Sétanta]

If humankind was a part of it we would not have the theology of God creating a world. it simply would have "been"

Were taught that there was nothing and THEN god created us. Im just using christian theology here. Id far rather your interpretation, or an imperfect God.

If you are using Christian theology then you are saying that God is perfect. You are just second guessing his methods of sharing that.

[mongoose]

Does he mean that he is the greatest being ever, or that he is perfect? You can beat your own record and still always be better then anyone else.