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Thread: Legio quinta Macedonica still around?

  1. #1
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Legio quinta Macedonica still around?

    In the preview we see it fighting Persian infantry. But wasn't it formed back in the first century BCE?

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    Pompeius Magnus's Avatar primus inter pares
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    Default Re: Legio quinta Macedonica still around?

    The Legio V Macedonia was - like nearly all other Legions as well - sub-divided into Vexillations/detachments of probably 500-1000 men.
    In the 5th century one part was serving as Limitanei (Memphis, Egypt) another part belonged to the field army of Oriens and was classified as Comitatenses.

    The Vexillation in Egypt is indeed mentioned a last time during the 6th century - and was according my sources garrisoned in Antaiopolis (Egypt) - and classified as Noumeros (Numerus=Arithmos) - and was probably still 500 strong.
    In the egyptian Papyri of the 6th century they are mentioned as "Makedones"
    (Papyri Caire 67002, II 12 and Papyri 67005,23 ; compare also the list of Maspero page 143).

    The Magazine "Ancient Warfare" has published in one of the last 2 magazines an intersting article about this unit. The article descibes that a grave stone with an inscription of a soldier of the Makedones was found in Syria - which can be dated back to the 7th century.
    This would suggest that the Vexillation of the mobile field army survived at least until the 7th century. However, the article fails to give the CIL-number of the stone artefact - insofar I'm not able to check this - but in general I think that this message is reliable. Especially because the area where the stone was found is matching the operational area of the field army.
    Last edited by Pompeius Magnus; November 21, 2011 at 08:56 AM.

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    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Legio quinta Macedonica still around?

    Thanks. Either way, that's a very long service for a single unit. What is it, 600 years?

    Either way, you say "mobile field armies". Yet I have read a few theories suggesting they were, in fact, an immobile deterrent for usurpations.

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    Pompeius Magnus's Avatar primus inter pares
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    Default Re: Legio quinta Macedonica still around?

    one Vexillation was serving in the mobile field army of the MMpO - as shown in the Notitia Dignitatum - and the other one served as static garrison (classified as Limitanei) in Antaiopolis (at least during the 6th century) - before stationed in Memphis (5th century).

    Both classifications of Comitatenses and Limitanei were still valid during the era of Justinian and beyond (even if the greek terms were more common for both institutions).
    I want also remind once more that tactical units called Comitatenses and Limitanei were never existing. Both terms are just classifications of existing tactical units. That means: a tactical unit (e.g. Legio, Numerus, Auxilium etc) was either classified as Limitanei or as Comitatenses. Therefore it is not illogically that one and the same Legion was splittet into several independent detachments - some serving as static Limitanei - others as mobile reserve.

    ...and yes, the good old Quinta was serving for round about 600 years.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Legio quinta Macedonica still around?

    @romano britones , this thread provides also an answer for your V Macedonia question

  6. #6

    Default Re: Legio quinta Macedonica still around?

    Thanks

  7. #7

    Default Re: Legio quinta Macedonica still around?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blatta Optima Maxima View Post
    Either way, you say "mobile field armies". Yet I have read a few theories suggesting they were, in fact, an immobile deterrent for usurpations.
    Thought I should answer this question for anyone interested.

    The "mobile" field army was not given this title by historians because they travelled faster than any other unit. They were labelled as an "mobile field army" because they were expected to be deployed all over the Roman Empire without much complaint.

    There are quite a few examples whereby new recruits asked to serve in the Limitanei because they do not want to leave their home region!

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    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Legio quinta Macedonica still around?

    The "mobile" field army was not given this title by historians because they travelled faster than any other unit. They were labelled as an "mobile field army" because they were expected to be deployed all over the Roman Empire without much complaint.
    WTF... I never suggested that they were simply faster, I ing know what a mobile army as opposed to a stationary one is. Everyone does. No need to belittle the intelligence of others to suit your arrogance.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Legio quinta Macedonica still around?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blatta Optima Maxima View Post
    WTF... I never suggested that they were simply faster, I ing know what a mobile army as opposed to a stationary one is. Everyone does. No need to belittle the intelligence of others to suit your arrogance.
    Well, you were mentioning that some historian view the field army as a relatively immobile unit.

    There are a few authors , such as Luttwark, that attempted to portray the mobile field army as a equivalent of a modern day mechanised unit. Hence there are people out there that believe that the Roman mobile field army should be seen as some sort of rapid response force.

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    Pompeius Magnus's Avatar primus inter pares
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    Default Re: Legio quinta Macedonica still around?

    Ray is right insofar as the idea between Comitatenses and Limitanei was that
    a) certain troops took care as a static troop for the borders and rivers and
    b) other troops stayed in the background and were activated when the enemy broke through.
    So far - so bad ;-)

    The base of that development has been started by troops classified as sacru comitatu, which was the name of legions accompanying the emperors in the late 3rd century. They were very few in number - and so long their number was not exeeding 12.000 or so (just a numerical example) it was simply not necessary to develop a name for the opposite group - respectively for Legions standing near or at the borders or guarding rivers (I know about the ripenses - but that's once more another topic. the ripenses or castresiani cannot taken to describe or explain the origin of the limitanei).

    It was not necessary to develop a name for something which was existing since several hundred years. Legions were garrisoned at the borders of the empire since Octavian Caesar (Augustus). However, nobody declares those 1st, 2nd or 3rd century soldiers as static peasant troopers - or give them the attribute of "limited mobility" or of "bad quality". And this is quite irritating since we have the knowledge that even during the era of the early Principate land for farming was given to soldiers (see Tacitus ann. XIII,54 [...] agros [...] milites usui sepositos [...]).

    When the Comites were increased in number the authorities were basically forced to find a new name for a classification to differ both groups. That's the reason why the term of Limitanei appears the first time in history not before the year 363 (Theodosius XII,1,56).
    And until this date I fear that the general mobility and degree of equipment was not per se reduced. I also go so far to say that the differecenes were quite few and that all important legionary bases were able to send immediately vexillations to the mobile field armies if needed.

    The classical black-white scheme can just be taken for certain regions and provinces - always considering the time frame as well. We know that Limitanei in Gaul and Britain and partially in the west of the Balkans, south Egypt and few other locations were clearly embadded in the community. But this cannot be taken pars pro toto for all other units.
    Limitanei in 5th and 6th century in the north of Egypt, Syria and Palastinae and the Armenian provinces were neither "static" nor of "bad quality". This is clearly displayed by Papyri findings - which were part of my researches during the last years. Insofar the view that Limitanei were per se degraded to a static peasant force is simply not true - and just valid for some regions in the western and eastern empire - obviously the clear distinction and a different level of quality was more visible in the west - not so much in the east.

    The Notitia Dignitatum was still forced to declare some troops as "Pseudo"Comitatenses - while on the other hand some 10 or 15 years later you never hear again of such a classification. Obviously the "exception" became a standard procedure - which is in my opinion just possible if the static forces were still able to keep a minimum of training, equipment and order.
    Also the allegation of Procopius - that Justinian removed or destroyed the Limitanei - is difficult to understand.
    Not only that Justinian gave the order to deploy Limitanei in the reconquered areas (esp in Africa) - but also older "static" units which were sent (!!) to Italy were replaced in their old home province by new static forces (see Electi and Biselecti).

    Ergo, there was of course a difference between Limitanei and Comitatenses - but their task, their degree of quality and equipment was fluit. There was no clear break as we can observe one in few cases in the late 4th century in the western empire. We have also enough examples of soldiers of so called mobile troops which had problems to leave their home-base. I have also elaborated a Papyri of a soldier who has written a letter to his Tribunus with the request to left him back in the kastron and not take him to campaign because his mother is sick and she needs his help.
    On the other hand history teach us about Duces who took their soldiers to campaigns - troops which were classified as Limitanei in Egypt.
    Last edited by Pompeius Magnus; October 14, 2012 at 11:24 AM.

  11. #11
    Constantius's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Legio quinta Macedonica still around?

    A fantastic and thorough answer, nobody could ask for more. But I might recommend some further reading to some people- and visit ours and IB reading lists


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    SeniorBatavianHorse's Avatar Tribunus Vacans
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    Default Re: Legio quinta Macedonica still around?

    Agreed. Wonderful post there, PM. And I support further reading, too. This is a great area to get into which helps a reader develop a great insight into the Later Roman exercitus.

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