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Thread: The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage (updated: gay marriage ban overturned!)

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  1. #1

    Default The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage (updated: gay marriage ban overturned!)

    Let's introduce the writer first:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Olson
    http://www.gibsondunn.com/lawyers/tolson

    Ted Olson is arguably the most prominent lawyer for the American conservative establishment of our generation. He has argued 58 cases in the Supreme Court, including the two Bush v. Gore cases arising out of the 2000 presidential election, and Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, prevailing in over 75% of those arguments.

    So a lot of conservatives are really surprised when he comes out to not only support gay marriage, but also litigate on behalf of two gay couples challenging the federal constitutionality of Proposition 8, a 2008 ballot initiative that amended the California Constitution to ban gay-marriage. He wrote a great article explaining why, from a constitutional perspective, gay marriage should be legalized:

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswee...-marriage.html

    key parts:

    My involvement in this case has generated a certain degree of consternation among conservatives. How could a politically active, lifelong Republican, a veteran of the Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush administrations, challenge the "traditional" definition of marriage and press for an "activist" interpretation of the Constitution to create another "new" constitutional right?

    My answer to this seeming conundrum rests on a lifetime of exposure to persons of different backgrounds, histories, viewpoints, and intrinsic characteristics, and on my rejection of what I see as superficially appealing but ultimately false perceptions about our Constitution and its protection of equality and fundamental rights.
    .....

    At the end of the Civil War, to make the elusive promise of equality a reality, the 14th Amendment to the Constitution added the command that "no State É shall deprive any person of life, liberty or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person É the equal protection of the laws."

    Subsequent laws and court decisions have made clear that equality under the law extends to persons of all races, religions, and places of origin. What better way to make this national aspiration complete than to apply the same protection to men and women who differ from others only on the basis of their sexual orientation? I cannot think of a single reason—and have not heard one since I undertook this venture—for continued discrimination against decent, hardworking members of our society on that basis.
    .....

    The United States Supreme Court has repeatedly held that marriage is one of the most fundamental rights that we have as Americans under our Constitution. It is an expression of our desire to create a social partnership, to live and share life's joys and burdens with the person we love, and to form a lasting bond and a social identity. The Supreme Court has said that marriage is a part of the Constitution's protections of liberty, privacy, freedom of association, and spiritual identification. In short, the right to marry helps us to define ourselves and our place in a community. Without it, there can be no true equality under the law.

    It is true that marriage in this nation traditionally has been regarded as a relationship exclusively between a man and a woman, and many of our nation's multiple religions define marriage in precisely those terms. But while the Supreme Court has always previously considered marriage in that context, the underlying rights and liberties that marriage embodies are not in any way confined to heterosexuals.
    ....

    The explanation mentioned most often is tradition. But simply because something has always been done a certain way does not mean that it must always remain that way. Otherwise we would still have segregated schools and debtors' prisons. Gays and lesbians have always been among us, forming a part of our society, and they have lived as couples in our neighborhoods and communities. For a long time, they have experienced discrimination and even persecution; but we, as a society, are starting to become more tolerant, accepting, and understanding. California and many other states have allowed gays and lesbians to form domestic partnerships (or civil unions) with most of the rights of married heterosexuals. Thus, gay and lesbian individuals are now permitted to live together in state-sanctioned relationships. It therefore seems anomalous to cite "tradition" as a justification for withholding the status of marriage and thus to continue to label those relationships as less worthy, less sanctioned, or less legitimate.
    ....

    The second argument I often hear is that traditional marriage furthers the state's interest in procreation—and that opening marriage to same-sex couples would dilute, diminish, and devalue this goal. But that is plainly not the case. Preventing lesbians and gays from marrying does not cause more heterosexuals to marry and conceive more children. Likewise, allowing gays and lesbians to marry someone of the same sex will not discourage heterosexuals from marrying a person of the opposite sex. How, then, would allowing same-sex marriages reduce the number of children that heterosexual couples conceive?

    This procreation argument cannot be taken seriously. We do not inquire whether heterosexual couples intend to bear children, or have the capacity to have children, before we allow them to marry. We permit marriage by the elderly, by prison inmates, and by persons who have no intention of having children. What's more, it is pernicious to think marriage should be limited to heterosexuals because of the state's desire to promote procreation. We would surely not accept as constitutional a ban on marriage if a state were to decide, as China has done, to discourage procreation.
    ....

    Another argument, vaguer and even less persuasive, is that gay marriage somehow does harm to heterosexual marriage. I have yet to meet anyone who can explain to me what this means. In what way would allowing same-sex partners to marry diminish the marriages of heterosexual couples? Tellingly, when the judge in our case asked our opponent to identify the ways in which same-sex marriage would harm heterosexual marriage, to his credit he answered honestly: he could not think of any.
    ....

    If we are born heterosexual, it is not unusual for us to perceive those who are born homosexual as aberrational and threatening. Many religions and much of our social culture have reinforced those impulses. Too often, that has led to prejudice, hostility, and discrimination. The antidote is understanding, and reason. We once tolerated laws throughout this nation that prohibited marriage between persons of different races. California's Supreme Court was the first to find that discrimination unconstitutional. The U.S. Supreme Court unanimously agreed 20 years later, in 1967, in a case called Loving v. Virginia. It seems inconceivable today that only 40 years ago there were places in this country where a black woman could not legally marry a white man. And it was only 50 years ago that 17 states mandated segregated public education—until the Supreme Court unanimously struck down that practice in Brown v. Board of Education. Most Americans are proud of these decisions and the fact that the discriminatory state laws that spawned them have been discredited. I am convinced that Americans will be equally proud when we no longer discriminate against gays and lesbians and welcome them into our society.
    ....

    Americans who believe in the words of the Declaration of Independence, in Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, in the 14th Amendment, and in the Constitution's guarantees of equal protection and equal dignity before the law cannot sit by while this wrong continues. This is not a conservative or liberal issue; it is an American one, and it is time that we, as Americans, embraced it.
    Have a question about China? Get your answer here.

  2. #2

    Default Re: The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage

    That would be some nice progress... hell I might eventually even be able to stomach voting republican sometimes if they can axe the religious anti gay/abortion type crap.

  3. #3

    Default Re: The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluttershy View Post
    That would be some nice progress... hell I might eventually even be able to stomach voting republican sometimes if they can axe the religious anti gay/abortion type crap.
    If the bible says no, then why should you tell the Christians what to think?

  4. #4

    Default Re: The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ojf View Post
    If the bible says no, then why should you tell the Christians what to think?
    The GOP didn't use to give a shite what the Bible said until the Televangelist lobby started creeping into the Republican base in the early 80s.
    Heir to Noble Savage in the Imperial House of Wilpuri

  5. #5

    Default Re: The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Filmmaker View Post
    The GOP didn't use to give a shite what the Bible said until the Televangelist lobby started creeping into the Republican base in the early 80s.

    So? Jesus has been around for ever. And please don't swear it offends me

  6. #6

    Default Re: The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ojf View Post
    So? Jesus has been around for ever. And please don't swear it offends me
    There is nothing in that sentance that actually works.

    Jesus has been around for ever - no he hasnt. its about 2012-2008 years since his birth depending on exactly how you calculate it.

    And please don't swear it offends me - he/she didnt swear - the forum has inbuilt swear filters and thus you cant type swearing unless you type it like t*h*i*s.

    And, on topic - please tell me in the bible where it says GAY PEOPLE cannot be married.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ojf View Post
    So? Jesus has been around for ever. And please don't swear it offends me
    No, its a fact. The Republican Party historically was not the Christian conservative platform that it is now, not until the Reagan administration. A basic understanding of American political history would reveal this.

    The forum has a filter against swearing so you need not get offended.


    Quote Originally Posted by bushbush
    The thing is that "marriage" is a deep-rooted tradition for American society (or any society) and the right to marry has been repeatedly recognized as a fundamental right under the Constitution by the Supreme Court. The Court never qualified marriage as a right depending on certain religious affiliations. In my opinion though, creating "civil-unions" for gay couples and have "marriage" for hereosexuals will produce the old "separate but equal" standard during the era of racial segregation. Yes in theory they could become equal, but everyone knows well homosexuals will be treated as second class when they want to exercise their marriage right.
    I think the overarching issue though is not coercing religious institutions to recognize it as marriage. As long as that's assured and that the marriage is simply recognized on the state (or federal if it comes to that) level then it'd be okay I think.
    Heir to Noble Savage in the Imperial House of Wilpuri

  8. #8

    Default Re: The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ojf View Post
    If the bible says no, then why should you tell the Christians what to think?
    what you think in terms of religious beliefs does not really matter here because everyone ought to be given "equal protection" in front of the law based on the Constitution.
    Have a question about China? Get your answer here.

  9. #9

    Default Re: The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ojf View Post
    If the bible says no, then why should you tell the Christians what to think?

    They can think whatever they like, they cannot however make that prejudice law.. or should Jews be allowed to ban pork?

  10. #10
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ojf View Post
    If the bible says no, then why should you tell the Christians what to think?
    Because the bible doesnt dictate laws in this country and nobody is telling religious folks what to believe.

  11. #11
    GrnEyedDvl's Avatar Liberalism is a Socially Transmitted Disease
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    Default Re: The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluttershy View Post
    That would be some nice progress... hell I might eventually even be able to stomach voting republican sometimes if they can axe the religious anti gay/abortion type crap.
    As an atheist and also a conservative, I have no problem with what two gay people want to do. It does disturb me that this only came out after the elimination of the marriage penalty tax, it smacks of wanting to do it for the tax savings. Beyond that I really dont care what two people want to call themselves.

    Abortion is an entirely different issue and if you want to take that up in another thread (fight club? ) I would be happy to.

  12. #12

    Default Re: The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by GrnEyedDvl View Post
    Abortion is an entirely different issue and if you want to take that up in another thread (fight club? ) I would be happy to.
    Apologies for the off topic - which way would you argue, because ill happily take pro-abortion.

  13. #13
    Prosaic Visitant's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage

    I'm not entirely surprised by this, in fact I'm actually puzzled as to why more conservatives haven't publicly accepted and argued for gay marriage. With the Logcabin Republicans, the GOProud group and the rise of the New Evangelicals I'm quite surprised at their collective silence. If America is anything like here, than about half of people who identify as conservative already support gm.

    I mean, there is no reason to oppose it. It goes against the liberty grain and family is quite important to many conservatives so why some would want to tread the illiberal path of marriage restriction is beyond me.*
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluttershy View Post
    That would be some nice progress... hell I might eventually even be able to stomach voting republican sometimes if they can axe the religious anti gay/abortion type crap.
    It's already begun; look up 'New Evangelicals'.

    *Well, I know it's the so called 'Christian right', but still; beyond a few selective Biblical quotes there is no reason for a conservative to oppose gm.
    Last edited by Prosaic Visitant; February 07, 2012 at 09:19 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage

    Politically, it's a hot potato for the GOP, because they do try to draw support from people who hold staunch Christian beliefs regarding homosexuality and abortion.

    I think the jinni is out of the bottle, it's just takes time for the base to accept it as a lost cause, and move on, even in disgruntlement.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  15. #15

    Default Re: The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    Politically, it's a hot potato for the GOP, because they do try to draw support from people who hold staunch Christian beliefs regarding homosexuality and abortion.

    I think the jinni is out of the bottle, it's just takes time for the base to accept it as a lost cause, and move on, even in disgruntlement.
    And that's why it will become increasingly difficult for a GOP candidate to get elected to the Presidency in future years as they will have to pander to the far-right "base" of the party during the Primaries and then swing hard to port during the actual election in order to win over enough Independents to actually win the election.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ojf View Post
    If the bible says no, then why should you tell the Christians what to think?
    The Bible says many things. The life of Jesus is just a small portion of the work in total and generally shows that Jesus was more forgiving than most modern American Christians. Add to that the Old Testament and the Apocrypha and one sees an entirely different version of Christianity and the older beliefs of the Abrahamic religions as once believed.

    These are different times and some Christians do believe that secular values and Constitutional protections for all citizens must come first in a democracy. But then again that is only my Christian opinion - yours may vary.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage

    Ah the Republicans won't adopt a pro-gay marriage position until they finally come to the realization that they can't depend on the far right.
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  17. #17
    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage

    Not to sound like a hipster or anything, but I've been arguing this for years.

    You all owe me rep.

  18. #18

    Default Re: The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage

    To be fair, it does say to stone them...
    It says in the OLD TESTAMENT to stone people who commit sodomy. First not all gay people actually commit soddomy. And secondly the NEW TESTAMENT commands us to love others.

    Just a thought.

  19. #19

    Default Re: The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Maidel View Post
    It says in the OLD TESTAMENT to stone people who commit sodomy. First not all gay people actually commit soddomy. And secondly the NEW TESTAMENT commands us to love others.

    Just a thought.

    The Old testament also tells you to kill every living thing in a city that has none believers in it....

  20. #20

    Default Re: The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage

    Anyways, I've always viewed it as the government interfering in something they don't need to be a part of. I say let each denomination decide whether they want to allow gay marriage. The government shouldn't really have a say whether or not you and someone else can be considered married. And if you still want to give the same benefits of getting married (taxes, etc) just label all couples civil unions for the government.
    The laws in question wouldn't force denominations to give religious marriages. That's their own decision. Churches would not have to marry someone under the law if the Supreme Court decides in favor of this guy. It solely has to do with government marriages and how they're treated.

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