Languages. and traits "cheat"

[raphael]

Im just curious. what languages were used in the late roman empire? latin? greek?

also how do i convert my characters to Christianity besides using cheats. if the only way is using cheats, then what do i type into the console?

and what traits make chatacters have "the great" suffix?

[Diocle]

Latin! Over time more and more Greek Language especially in the East, Voulagar Latin by the people in the different areas of the Empire. No cheats for christianity! Maybe for the trait 'great' win battles and conquer more and more regions!

[Chelchal]

Regardless of their original ethnic background, the social elites in the west generally communicated in Latin, while those in the east did so in Greek. Occasionally they did both; the historian Ammianus Marcellinus was a Syrian born Greek who wrote in Latin. But while we mostly understand the Roman empire through these elites (since they composed most of the literate population) the vast majority of the empire's inhabitants, from Britain to North Africa to Syria were rural inhabitants who spoke in indigenous languages.

The fact that Basque, Welsh, and Albanian are still spoken (in mountainous regions) indicates that they are holdovers from before the Roman conquest of Iberia, Britain, and the Balkans. In Gaul, the common people who lived in the countryside spoke either Gaulish, or a patois of Gaulish and vulgar Latin. Writing in the late 4th century, Jerome claims that the native Celts living around trier, spoke a similar language to the descendants of Celts who had settled in Galatia in Anatolia in the 3rd century BC, so in both regions, the commoners were still speaking a Celtic language.

Spain was more Romanized, so apart from the Basques, the common people spoke an Ibero-Latin patois which survived through the Muslim conquest. In Britain, Latin of the Romano-British elite died out when they were supplanted by the Anglo-Saxons, but the Celtic dialects of the lower classes survive to this day in the form of Welsh and Cornish. The people living on either side of the Rhine, even when both banks were controlled by the Romans, probably spoke West Germanic dialects from the early 4th century onwards. The Roman government heavily recruited soldiers from them, and Roman military lexicon adopted Germanic words such as bandon and foulkon, along with the war cry called the barritus.

In North Africa, Punic was still spoken by the peasantry, and St. Augustine needed a Punic interpreter to speak with peasants as late as the early 5th century. In the Balkans, the common people spoke various Thraco-Illyrian dialects. Justinian's father's name was Petrus Sabbatius, which Procopius claims was of Thraco-Illyrian origin. Albanian is the closest living relative. When the Slavs invaded the Balkans in the 6th/7th centuries, Slavonic replaced the original Thraco-Illyrian languages.

In Egypt, the common people spoke a descendant of the ancient Egyptian language, which was originally written in hieroglyphics. By the later empire, knowledge of hieroglyphics was largely lost and most records were in Greek. From the Muslim conquests onwards, Arabic displaced mostly displaced the native Egyptian language. However, it survives to this day among the Egyptian Christians as Coptic, and is now written in a Greek script.

In the Middle East, Syriac and Aramaic were very prevalent and Syriac especially competed with Greek as a literate language. As in Egypt, they were largely displaced by Arabic after the Muslim invasions, but as with Coptic, they are still spoken in some from today by the surviving Christian minorities, if only in a liturgical form.

The vast majority of the people in the empire spoke neither Greek nor Latin, and outside the Middle East, they were typically rural and illiterate. Since Roman history was recorded by its urban based, literate, Greco-Latin elites, the common people of the empire, who were very culturally diverse, were a silent and voiceless majority.

There was literature produced in Syriac, Aramaic and Armenian written at this time, but it was almost entirely of the ecclesiastic sort, with the remainder being legal documents such as contracts and wills. Even then, the later were probably translations of Latin documents that had actually legal standing.

[raphael]

Regardless of their original ethnic background, the social elites in the west generally communicated in Latin, while those in the east did so in Greek. Occasionally they did both; the historian Ammianus Marcellinus was a Syrian born Greek who wrote in Latin. But while we mostly understand the Roman empire through these elites (since they composed most of the literate population) the vast majority of the empire's inhabitants, from Britain to North Africa to Syria were rural inhabitants who spoke in indigenous languages.

The fact that Basque, Welsh, and Albanian are still spoken (in mountainous regions) indicates that they are holdovers from before the Roman conquest of Iberia, Britain, and the Balkans. In Gaul, the common people who lived in the countryside spoke either Gaulish, or a patois of Gaulish and vulgar Latin. Writing in the late 4th century, Jerome claims that the native Celts living around trier, spoke a similar language to the descendants of Celts who had settled in Galatia in Anatolia in the 4th century BC, so in both regions, the commoners were still speaking a Celtic language.

Spain was more Romanized, so apart from the Basques, the common people spoke an Ibero-Latin patois which survived through the Muslim conquest. In Britain, Latin of the Romano-British elite died out when they were supplanted by the Anglo-Saxons, but the Celtic dialects of the lower classes survive to this day in the form of Welsh and Cornish. The people living on either side of the Rhine, even when both banks were controlled by the Romans, probably spoke West Germanic dialects from the early 4th century onwards. The Roman government heavily recruited soldiers from them, and Roman military lexicon adopted Germanic words such as bandon and foulkon, along with the war cry called the barritus.

In North Africa, Punic was still spoken by the peasantry, and St. Augustine needed a Punic interpreter to speak with peasants as late as the early 5th century. In the Balkans, the common people spoke various Thraco-Illyrian dialects. Justinian's father's name was Petrus Sabbatius, which Procopius claims was of Thraco-Illyrian origin. Albanian is the closest living relative. When the Slavs invaded the Balkans in the 6th/7th centuries, Slavonic replaced the original Thraco-Illyrian languages.

In Egypt, the common people spoke a descendant of the ancient Egyptian language, which was originally written in hieroglyphics. By the later empire, knowledge of hieroglyphics was largely lost and most records were in Greek. From the Muslim conquests onwards, Arabic displaced mostly displaced the native Egyptian language. However, it survives to this day among the Egyptian Christians as Coptic, and is now written in a Greek script.

In the Middle East, Syriac and Aramaic were very prevalent and Syriac especially competed with Greek as a literate language. As in Egypt, they were largely displaced by Arabic after the Muslim invasions, but as with Coptic, they are still spoken in some from today by the surviving Christian minorities, if only in a liturgical form.

The vast majority of the people in the empire spoke neither Greek nor Latin, and outside the Middle East, they were typically rural and illiterate. Since Roman history was recorded by its urban based, literate, Greco-Latin elites, the common people of the empire, who were very culturally diverse, were a silent and voiceless majority.

There was literature produced in Syriac, Aramaic and Armenian written at this time, but it was almost entirely of the ecclesiastic sort, with the remainder being legal documents such as contracts and wills. Even then, the later were probably translations of Latin documents that had actually legal standing.

thank you for explaining that to me! +rep!


about the making family members Christian, i noticed some family members/generals dont have religious traits like it dosent say their pagan or christian or jewish ect. is there a way to add_trait Christian or something in the colsole?

[Diocle]

Regardless of their original ethnic background, the social elites in the west generally communicated in Latin, while those in the east did so in Greek. Occasionally they did both; the historian Ammianus Marcellinus was a Syrian born Greek who wrote in Latin. But while we mostly understand the Roman empire through these elites (since they composed most of the literate population) the vast majority of the empire's inhabitants, from Britain to North Africa to Syria were rural inhabitants who spoke in indigenous languages.

The fact that Basque, Welsh, and Albanian are still spoken (in mountainous regions) indicates that they are holdovers from before the Roman conquest of Iberia, Britain, and the Balkans. In Gaul, the common people who lived in the countryside spoke either Gaulish, or a patois of Gaulish and vulgar Latin. Writing in the late 4th century, Jerome claims that the native Celts living around trier, spoke a similar language to the descendants of Celts who had settled in Galatia in Anatolia in the 4th century BC, so in both regions, the commoners were still speaking a Celtic language.

Spain was more Romanized, so apart from the Basques, the common people spoke an Ibero-Latin patois which survived through the Muslim conquest. In Britain, Latin of the Romano-British elite died out when they were supplanted by the Anglo-Saxons, but the Celtic dialects of the lower classes survive to this day in the form of Welsh and Cornish. The people living on either side of the Rhine, even when both banks were controlled by the Romans, probably spoke West Germanic dialects from the early 4th century onwards. The Roman government heavily recruited soldiers from them, and Roman military lexicon adopted Germanic words such as bandon and foulkon, along with the war cry called the barritus.

In North Africa, Punic was still spoken by the peasantry, and St. Augustine needed a Punic interpreter to speak with peasants as late as the early 5th century. In the Balkans, the common people spoke various Thraco-Illyrian dialects. Justinian's father's name was Petrus Sabbatius, which Procopius claims was of Thraco-Illyrian origin. Albanian is the closest living relative. When the Slavs invaded the Balkans in the 6th/7th centuries, Slavonic replaced the original Thraco-Illyrian languages.

In Egypt, the common people spoke a descendant of the ancient Egyptian language, which was originally written in hieroglyphics. By the later empire, knowledge of hieroglyphics was largely lost and most records were in Greek. From the Muslim conquests onwards, Arabic displaced mostly displaced the native Egyptian language. However, it survives to this day among the Egyptian Christians as Coptic, and is now written in a Greek script.

In the Middle East, Syriac and Aramaic were very prevalent and Syriac especially competed with Greek as a literate language. As in Egypt, they were largely displaced by Arabic after the Muslim invasions, but as with Coptic, they are still spoken in some from today by the surviving Christian minorities, if only in a liturgical form.

The vast majority of the people in the empire spoke neither Greek nor Latin, and outside the Middle East, they were typically rural and illiterate. Since Roman history was recorded by its urban based, literate, Greco-Latin elites, the common people of the empire, who were very culturally diverse, were a silent and voiceless majority.

There was literature produced in Syriac, Aramaic and Armenian written at this time, but it was almost entirely of the ecclesiastic sort, with the remainder being legal documents such as contracts and wills. Even then, the later were probably translations of Latin documents that had actually legal standing.

What a wanderful discovery!! a truly great post which has as its subject the Language of the Empire! now that I began to think that this kind of problems would inspire little or no interest!!
Again great post Chelchal, as said SBH, the ever wise, good information, clear, and detailed!! ....... +rep



Only a small observation: the efficiency of the Roman Administration, in its functions like tax collecting, recruiting, popolation census, relationship with the local tribal elites, in a so vast Empire, would suggest that the use of the Spoken Latin or Greek, was widespread even in the most remote province.

[Agent007]

Regardless of their original ethnic background, the social elites in the west generally communicated in Latin, while those in the east did so in Greek. Occasionally they did both; the historian Ammianus Marcellinus was a Syrian born Greek who wrote in Latin. But while we mostly understand the Roman empire through these elites (since they composed most of the literate population) the vast majority of the empire's inhabitants, from Britain to North Africa to Syria were rural inhabitants who spoke in indigenous languages.

The fact that Basque, Welsh, and Albanian are still spoken (in mountainous regions) indicates that they are holdovers from before the Roman conquest of Iberia, Britain, and the Balkans. In Gaul, the common people who lived in the countryside spoke either Gaulish, or a patois of Gaulish and vulgar Latin. Writing in the late 4th century, Jerome claims that the native Celts living around trier, spoke a similar language to the descendants of Celts who had settled in Galatia in Anatolia in the 4th century BC, so in both regions, the commoners were still speaking a Celtic language.

Spain was more Romanized, so apart from the Basques, the common people spoke an Ibero-Latin patois which survived through the Muslim conquest. In Britain, Latin of the Romano-British elite died out when they were supplanted by the Anglo-Saxons, but the Celtic dialects of the lower classes survive to this day in the form of Welsh and Cornish. The people living on either side of the Rhine, even when both banks were controlled by the Romans, probably spoke West Germanic dialects from the early 4th century onwards. The Roman government heavily recruited soldiers from them, and Roman military lexicon adopted Germanic words such as bandon and foulkon, along with the war cry called the barritus.

In North Africa, Punic was still spoken by the peasantry, and St. Augustine needed a Punic interpreter to speak with peasants as late as the early 5th century. In the Balkans, the common people spoke various Thraco-Illyrian dialects. Justinian's father's name was Petrus Sabbatius, which Procopius claims was of Thraco-Illyrian origin. Albanian is the closest living relative. When the Slavs invaded the Balkans in the 6th/7th centuries, Slavonic replaced the original Thraco-Illyrian languages.

In Egypt, the common people spoke a descendant of the ancient Egyptian language, which was originally written in hieroglyphics. By the later empire, knowledge of hieroglyphics was largely lost and most records were in Greek. From the Muslim conquests onwards, Arabic displaced mostly displaced the native Egyptian language. However, it survives to this day among the Egyptian Christians as Coptic, and is now written in a Greek script.

In the Middle East, Syriac and Aramaic were very prevalent and Syriac especially competed with Greek as a literate language. As in Egypt, they were largely displaced by Arabic after the Muslim invasions, but as with Coptic, they are still spoken in some from today by the surviving Christian minorities, if only in a liturgical form.

The vast majority of the people in the empire spoke neither Greek nor Latin, and outside the Middle East, they were typically rural and illiterate. Since Roman history was recorded by its urban based, literate, Greco-Latin elites, the common people of the empire, who were very culturally diverse, were a silent and voiceless majority.

There was literature produced in Syriac, Aramaic and Armenian written at this time, but it was almost entirely of the ecclesiastic sort, with the remainder being legal documents such as contracts and wills. Even then, the later were probably translations of Latin documents that had actually legal standing.

Very good explanation, like it was said, concise, helpful. Covered all of the problematic.

[PSEUDO ROMANUS]

The people living on either side of the Rhine, even when both banks were controlled by the Romans, probably spoke West Germanic dialects from the early 4th century onwards. The Roman government heavily recruited soldiers from them, and Roman military lexicon adopted Germanic words such as bandon and foulkon, along with the war cry called the barritus.

What you mention is accurate and very interesting, as it reveals the enormous cultural exchange between both worlds. It’s interesting for instance that the Germanic word wërra had such impact and was so deeply absorbed by the Roman population that it completely replaced the native Latin word bellvm (war) and has not survive in modern Romance languages (except in some adjectival forms). Nowadays the Italian, Spanish and Portuguese for war is guerra and guerre in French. As you can see, the Romance forms guerra and guerre, and English war are closely related.
Nice contribution, Chelchal .

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

Thanks, Chelchal. A very informative and concise post.

[Joar]

Indeed. A very good summary!

[Chelchal]

Thanks all. I read a lot of this in AHM Jones two volume masterpiece on the LRE. Syriac literature is an often neglected bit of Roman historiography since it offers some insight into the "middle class" (namely, a partially literate, urban population of modest means living off of crafts or small trades.)

The tale of Euphemia and the Goth is about a Christian Syrian girl from Edessa and daughter of a widowed landlady who marries a Goth soldier in the Roman army and goes away with him to his homeland (presumably north of the Danube) only to find that he is an abusive brute and already has a wife, who treats Euphemia pretty badly.

What's interesting is how the "Goth" is something of a stock character, like Miles Gloriosus. In fact, so many Goths served on the Eastern frontier, that "Goth" became synonymous for soldier in Syriac, since a Goth apparently had no other reason to be in the region other than to serve in the imperial army. It is also telling that the Goth returns "home" instead of settling in the Levant. Euphemia and the Goth was written about 400, so the titular Goth was probably stationed in Edessa in response to the great Hunnish invasion of the Roman middle east in 395.

Priscus briefly mentions this invasion, and how two Hunnish warlords, Basich and Kursich, pressed by famine, led a three pronged invasion through the Caucasus into Persian held Media, Eastern Anatolia, and Syria. Interestingly, Priscus mentions that before coming to the Maeotis (Sea of Azov) and then traveling south to the Caucasus, the Huns first crossed a "desert country." The Central Asian Desert ecoregion? It is impossible to know. This passage does shed some insight onto why the Huns came west at all.

At any rate, the Syriac sources describe the outcome of the war. They are an interesting contrast to the account of Claudian, the poet whose patron was Stilicho. At the time, the eunuch Eutropius and the sinister Rufinus were the powers behind the throne in the east, and Claudian was eager to portray them as responsible for allowing the invasion to occur, either through incompetence or treachery. Of course, the main armies from the East were still in Italy, thanks to the civil war between Theodosius and Arbogast.

According to Claudian, the Hunnish bands advanced as far west as the Halys river and Jerome says they raided as far south as Edessa. According to the Syrian bishop John of Ephesus, the Hun force invading Syria devastated the region that is now Southeastern Turkey, Northeastern Syria, and Northern Iraq. In Mesopotamia, the Huns managed to even capture a fortress called Zijat where the locals had fled from there in terror. They accomplished this by cutting off its aqueduct. After the surrender of Zijat, the Huns massacred most of the refugees, and carried the survivors off into captivity.

But most of the of Huns who crossed the Euphrates met with disaster. The Romans cut them off from the bridge, encircled them, and slaughtered them to the last man.

Basich and Kursich personally led one horde down the Euphrates and Tigris all the way to Ctesiphon, according to the Syrian chronicle, Liber Chalifarum. This invasion too went badly. This band became laden with plunder and captives, and the Persian cavalry caught up with them and killed many of the Huns. The survivors, including Basich and Kursich, barely escaped with their lives, and were forced to abandon their loot. The Persians managed to free some 18,000 prisoners as well.

All of this was of little consolation to the Syrians, who suffered miserably from the invasion. The Syrian cleric and poet Cyrillonas wrote:

"The East has been carried into captivity and, and nobody lives in the destroyed cities...dead are the merchants, widowed are the women...If Thou, O Lord, doest not intervene, I will be destroyed again. If the Huns will conquer me, oh Lord, why I have I taken refuge with the holy martyrs? If their swords kill my sons, why did I embrace thine exalted cross? If Thou will render to them my cities, where will be the glory of Thine holy church? Not a year has passed since they came and devastated me and took my children prisoners..."

The invasion had a salutary effect on Basich and Kursich. A few years later, according to Priscus, they sent emissaries to the Danube frontier and established friendly relations with the Romans. The historian Otto Maenchen Helfen says that "Basich" is an unambiguously Turkic name meaning "little Captain", so it could either be a title, a personal name, or a nickname. It is striking to observe the vast distances the Huns covered, even from just the Caucasus.

So overall, I think it's unfortunate that the Syrian sources are given short shrift. I do not speak or read Syriac by any means, these are all from translations.

[First Citizen Gallienus]

Your posts leave me speechless dude. Good stuff and +rep for you.

[raphael]

Chelchal, ur posts.... are... just... LOVELY!

[Diocle]

Chelchal, these Forums need more persons like you!!!!another great interesting post!
We need more from you, your posts are always a pleasant and instructive reading!
If only, I could give you more +rep, but I cannot,... for now!
Your suggestion about Syrian sources are true, we should know more about them! I really hope you'll continue to give us your precious suggestions!

[Chelchal]

Again, thanks to everyone for their kind of words. I'm just regurgitating what I've read.

If anyone wants to read more on these topics, AHM Jones gives a good overview on the spoken languages in Volume I, Chapter XXIV in his work, The Later Roman Empire, which I feel is probably the best overview of the Empire between Diocletian and Maurice written yet.

This website offers translations of both ecclesiastical and secular authors, including works by Syriac speaking authors.

In his magisterial World of the Huns, Otto J. Maenchen Helfen collated Syriac sources that recorded Imperial interactions with the Huns that counterbalance the traditional narratives from Priscus and Western authors writing in Greek and Latin.

[Deutschland]

About Thraco-Illyrian dialects. I have a theory that the Balkan was more romanized than portrayed today. They might have spoke a Latin dialect. The natural language of Justinian and his family was Latin and they were peasants after all.
There commonly and probably did so until the Slav incursions.

[Diocle]

About Thraco-Illyrian dialects. I have a theory that the Balkan was more romanized than portrayed today. They might have spoke a Latin dialect. The natural language of Justinian and his family was Latin and they were peasants after all.
There commonly and probably did so until the Slav incursions.

I concur with this suggestion, and it would be useful also speaking about the "Vexata questio" about the correct pronounce of the name Aetius, being 'The Last of the Romans' from the same geographical area, one would assume his family was Latin speakers so his Greek name should be pronounced like in Latin Language it was pronounced!
sorry for the offtopic but the opportunity offered by Deucshland post was too tempting for me!

[Chelchal]

I certainly wouldn't contest that, Deutschland. The face that Romanian has survived as the easternmost Romance language to this day is a testament that at least some of the people in the Balkan regions spoke Latin or a dialect of it in common conversation. I'd hypothesize that it's a question of topography. It's no accident that Basque or Albanian are located in very rugged, mountainous regions. Romania of course has the Carpathians curving through it and plateaus and hilly terrain besides, but generally, it consists of the Wallachian and Moldavian plains and the relatively low lying Transylvanian plateau. The inference being that it was easier for the Romans to directly control those regions than the Pyrenees or the Illyrian mountain ranges.