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Thread: Fighting Mongols in the Field - Egypt

  1. #1

    Default Fighting Mongols in the Field - Egypt

    Does anyone fight the Mongols in the field? Example with screenshots. I believe the field is the place to beat them.

    Fighting in the field is my preferred method. I fight each wave as it comes, and use assassins too. I find this easier than trying to deal with all 12 stacks when the 3 waves have arrived, and far far quicker.

    However, my impression is that most players avoid field battles at all costs. So, I've done a little example, with Egypt, with the screenshots to illustrate. I've posted this in 2 parts, as I couldn't upload all the screenshots in one post. Hopefully I'll be forgiven for this.

    This is Kingdoms Gold vanilla, H/VH, 1 year turns.

    Generally, the Mongols are vulnerable to heavy cavalry, and the bulk of my attacking armies are made of these. Egypt has Royal Mameluks - a superb heavy cavalry unit. As Egypt had the Horsebreeder's HQ (+2 experience globally) and the Swordsmith's HQ, courtesy of Hungary, (+2 experience) new units were trained at 4 experience (1 silver chevron).

    The rest of the army was Mameluk Archers, who have similar stats to Mongol Heavy Archers, and a few mercenary Alan Light Cavalry to chase the Mongol Horse Archers. I train them up for this purpose.

    In the past I have fought the Mongols in the field with similar armies, and with the Turks defeated them with mainly foot archers (Ottoman Infantry), JHI and Sipahi.

    I was playing H on the campaign, in the apparently mistaken belief that the diplomatic relations normalise towards Poor rather than Abysmal. Diplomacy is my main interest at the moment. This seems to have affected the number on stacks in the Mongol invasion to: 1st wave 2 stacks, 2nd wave 3 stacks, 3rd wave 4 stacks, for a disappointing 9 stacks in total.

    This was my first time with Egypt, so I was uncertain of their effectiveness. I made too many stacks :d

    1st Wave at Yerevan Assassinated - screenshot 1

    Very disappointing. Only 2 stacks, with bronze experience. Egyptian assassins took out the Khan and the general to destroy this wave without a battle.

    2nd Wave at Bulgar - screenshot 2

    3 full stacks of Mongols with silver experience appeared at rebel Bulgar. Assassin chances were a poor 7%, so the decision was made to fight.

    Trustworthy Egypt was granted military access by ally Russia. Egypt waited for the Mongols to attack Russian Ryazan so the two would be at war before attacking.

    Army Compositions (screenshots 3, 4 and 6)

    The Mongol army had 2 stacks of (screenshot 3):
    - 1 x General
    - 3 x Mongol Foot Archers
    - 3 x Mongol Infantry
    - 2 x Mongol Heavy Archers (Mounted)
    - 2 x Mongol Heavy Lancers
    - 2 x Mongol Light Lancers
    - 7 x Mongol Horse Archers

    The Khan's stack was tougher (screenshot 4):
    - 1 x General
    - 5 x Mongol Infantry
    - 4 x Mongol Foot Archers
    - 5 x Mongol Heavy Archers (Mounted)
    - 5 x Mongol Heavy Lancers

    As you can see, (screenshot 6) Egypt has a pure cavalry army, made up of:
    - 2 x Generals (Sultan and General)
    - 9 x Royal Mameluks (heavy cavalry)
    - 7 x Mameluk Archers (heavy missile cavalry)
    - 3 x Alan Light Cavalry (fast medium cavalry to catch the lighter Mongol Horse Archers)

    The second and third stacks were more or less identical.

    The Battle of Ryazan: 3 stacks vs 3 stacks - screenshot 5

    There were 3 stacks of Mongols, so the Egyptians attacked with 3 stacks. The Egyptian army was led by Sultan Ghandour the Tyrant, a 10 star general, and veteran of many conflicts.

    An overriding aim was to kill the Mongol generals, and thus destroy the wave.

    As the attack was made the AI suggested a marginal advantage to Egypt (screenshot 3).

    Egyptian Deployment - screenshot 6

    The battlefield had a long ridge on the left, a valley in the middle, and a shorter ridge on the right. Egypt planned to dominate the ridge on the left, as you always want the high ground. (Mongol reinforcements entered from the right of this view, as hoped. Egyptian reinforcements entered from the left of this view, also as hoped. In the screenshots the battle map skews this 90 degrees, so it appears Mongols enter from the top corner and left.)

    The bulk of the army was thus deployed left to take the ridge, with a smaller grouping on the right.


    Mongol Deployment - screenshot 7
    The Mongols were caught out of position on the left hand ridge, facing across the battlefield, rather than towards the attacking Egyptians.

    The Battle - screenshots 8,9,10 and 11, on next post
    Egypt rushed the Mongols to capitalize on them being in the wrong position. The critical aim was to gain control of the top of the ridge. The right wing rushed from the right ridge across to the left. The Mongols reacted quickly, pushing their archers behind the cavalry lines, and advancing their heavy lancers towards the charging Royal Mameluks. However, they were caught at a disadvantage, and half their Horse Archers were also trapped, and minced by the Alans.

    The Mongol second stack appeared as battle was joined with the first stack, entering from the right, but on lower ground (this appears to be top left on the battle map on screenshot 6).

    The critical fight was at the top of the ridge on the left - Royal Mameluks and Alans vs Heavy Lancers and Horse Archers. It was won. The Mongol right flank at the top of the ridge was rolled, and the Mameluks turned and fought the Mongols downhill. The Mongol foot archers were fighting to the front, with heavy cavalry fighting them downhill on their left flank. They not up to the challenge of the Egyptian heavy cavalry. Mameluk Archers took a fearsome toll. The second stack of Mongols joined against the Egyptian first stack along the valley floor. They were at a disadvantage being lower on the field.

    The first Mongol general was killed. The Mongol Heavy Archers retreated along the ridge, but were caught by Mamluk Archers and Alans at the edge of the battlefield, and defeated. The first stack was destroyed. The second stack was crumbling, but taking a heavy toll with arrows.

    Shortly afterwards the Egyptian reinforcements entered from the left. The first Egyptian stack fought the second Mongol stack until the Egyptian reinforcements engaged. Casualties were now heavy in the original stack, but the Mongols were outnumbered on the field. The survivors of the first stack concentrated on finding the enemy general. He was surrounded and killed. Outnumbered, the second Mongol stack was also destroyed as the third Mongol stack entered.

    The third Mongol stack, commanded by the Mongol Khan Jebe, also entered from the right of the original view (screenshot 4), coming over the right hand ridge. At this point the second stack was being finished off. The third stack was fought at the top of the right ridge. Again, the original Egyptian stack under Sultan Ghandour concentrated on catching the enemy general. He was isolated, surrounded and killed. The remaining Mongols routed.

    The third Egyptian stack was not needed.

    Results - screenshots 12 and 13 on next post
    The result was a clear victory for Egypt (screenshot 12). In fact, 3 stacks of Mongols were defeated by 2 stacks of Egyptians, as the Egyptian third stack did not engage.

    The Mongols started with 4,000 men, of which 670 survived. They lost 3,230.

    The Egyptians started with 3,550 men, of which 2,530 survived. They lost 980 men.

    The first Egyptian stack destroyed the first Mongol stack and most of the second stack alone, losing half their men. The second Egyptian stack lost a quarter of their men.

    On the battle statistics screen (screenshot 13) Sultan Ghandour's unit killed 167, and captured 90. But, the most damage was done by Mameluk Archers, mostly by arrow fire from a higher position at the top of the ridge, but also in melee. One Mameluk Archer unit killed 172, to pip the Sultan to top honours.

    The battle was won by the Egyptian Heavy Cavalry - the Royal Mameluks, who were stronger than and outnumbered the Mongol Heavy Lancers. However, they were unlikely to have won alone - the Mameluk Archer support was critical. Mameluk Archers proved to be the equal of the Mongol Heavy Archers in melee, and their arrow fire was essential. The Alans made quick work of the Mongol Horse Archers, and were able to sustain melee with the Heavy Archers until Mameluk Archers arrived.

    Aftermath - screenshot 14 on next post
    The 3 stacks of Mongols had all their generals killed, and the 2nd wave was destroyed.

    Egypt rejoiced. Egypt immediately vacated the now rebel lands of Russian Ryazan, leaving their allies to recapture it when they had the capability. To do otherwise would have meant war.

    On the field the Mongols were comprehensively defeated in melee by the Egyptian heavy cavalry, who outnumbered their counterparts, the Mongol Heavy Lancers. The Royal Mameluks were also far too strong for the Mongol foot archers. Mameluk Archers slew hundreds, protected by the fact that the Mongol Archers were being melee'd by the Royal Mameluks. They were not in a sustained exchange of arrow fire which they would have lost.

    Screenshots on first post
    1. Egypt T134 - first wave of Mongols destroyed by Egyptian assassins
    2. Egypt T142 - the Mongols attack Russian Ryazan, giving Egypt the pretext to make war on them
    3. Egypt T143 - first two Mongol stacks
    4. Egypt T143 - Khan's stack
    5. Egypt T143 - Egypt attacks the Mongols, 3 stacks vs 3 stacks
    6. Egyptian deployment at the battle
    7. Mongol deployment at the battle

    Screenshots on second post
    8. Cavalry melee at the top of the ridge. The Mongol 2nd stack can be seen entering along the left hand edge of the battle map.
    9. Egypt wins the top of the ridge. Mongol horse archers retreat along it. The Mongol 2nd stack enters melee on the valley floor
    10. The Mongol 3rd stack enters
    11. Khan Jebe, the final Mongol general, is killed. The Egyptian 2nd stack is engaged, and the 3rd stack waits to enter. The Mongols now rout.
    12. Victory for Egypt
    13. Battle Statistics
    14. Mongol faction destroyed

    (Note 20/12/17 - the twcenter seems to have deleted my album of screenshots, which are no longer shown. Sorry about that. )
    Last edited by FootSoldier; December 20, 2017 at 04:11 PM. Reason: Added screenshots of the Mongol army composition
    "War is an extension of diplomacy, but by other means." Karl von Clausewitz

  2. #2

    Default Re: Fighting Mongols in the Field - Egypt

    Fighting Mongols in the Field - Egypt (second post)

    Please forgive the double post. I needed to do the post in 2 parts in order to upload all the screenshots. Although there are 14 I believe it's the minimum needed to tell the story. Do anyway feel free to tell me off :d

    The screenshots below are covered in the first post, being:

    8. Cavalry melee at the top of the ridge. The Mongol 2nd stack can be seen entering along the left hand edge of the battle map.
    9. Egypt wins the top of the ridge. Mongol horse archers retreat along it. The Mongol 2nd stack enters melee on the valley floor
    10. The Mongol 3rd stack enters
    11. Khan Jebe, the final Mongol general, is killed. The Egyptian 2nd stack is engaged, and the 3rd stack waits to enter. The Mongols now rout.
    12. Victory for Egypt
    13. Battle Statistics
    14. Mongol faction destroyed
    My example is a cavalry based way to beat the Mongols, but, as I said, I have beaten them with foot infantry too. With the Turks I kept advancing the Ottoman Infantry, and melee'd their weaker Mongol Foot Archers with them. Here again the Mongols should be rushed, and not allowed to settle into a long exchange of arrow fire.

    I've also fought them with large foot contingents as the English and French, but didn't settle into missile exchanges.

    Obviously you do need an experienced army to fight them. Brand new 0 experience troops won't do it. But, the player has plenty of time to develop this, even on the default 2 year turn.

    (Note 20/12/17 - the twcenter seems to have deleted my album of screenshots, which are no longer shown. Sorry about that. )
    Last edited by FootSoldier; December 20, 2017 at 04:13 PM. Reason: Updated screenshot numbering
    "War is an extension of diplomacy, but by other means." Karl von Clausewitz

  3. #3
    .L.'s Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Fighting Mongols in the Field - Egypt

    IMO fighting Mongols on the field is suicide, I try to horde them all up into a bridge then massacre them as they cross with cannonade and arrows, then I let them reach my melee troops(Usually spears)

  4. #4
    crzyrndm's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Fighting Mongols in the Field - Egypt

    I do it as some factions, but trying as egypt is something I think I'd rather avoid (I find their roster appalling). Factions like russia, byz, HRE, or England, that either out shoot them or have decent early infantry I find to be much easier than anything else. As egypt I can barely even hold them out of cities.

    PS some impressive results you have there
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Fighting Mongols in the Field - Egypt

    No "right" way to fight the Mongols
    Ok, there's not a "right" or "wrong" way to fight the Mongols (unless you lose :d). Field battles are probably not the way to begin.

    You need battle experience with cavalry armies, and experience vs archer/horse archer armies. You probably want a bit of experience setting up positions for a multi-stack battle on the campaign map too, so reinforcements on both sides arrive more or less as expected. You also want troops that are at silver experience, or better, yourself. Understanding how the Mongols move (like crusade armies) also helps for blocking, herding and separating them.

    Defending in sieges and on bridges are tried and tested methods of defeating them.

    I don't like siege defences. I resent the troops lost to starvation etc. :d

    I do like bridge battles, but fighting the Mongols that way is very "samey". It's fun, but by the fourth campaign I'm fighting the Mongols on a bridge for the 40th time. I wanted a change.

    Advantages of fighting the Mongols wave by wave in the field

    The advantages to fighting the Mongols in the field as they arrive wave by wave are:
    - it's the quickest way to get rid of them
    - it minimizes disruption to trade and other military operations e.g. in Europe
    - it costs less as you need fewer troops/stacks against them, e.g. Egypt in my example had 6, but, in fact, only needed 2 or 3
    - it's easier to destroy an entire wave
    - it's very exciting

    It's very tough to fight them in the field if you wait for all 3 waves to unite in a 12 stack army. Although the first battle might involve 3 vs 3 stacks, and you win, the next turn the other Mongol stacks will surround and attack your army. You could, I suppose, retreat across a bridge, but the step a stack takes when it wins a battle always seems to trap in the zone of control of another Mongol army.

    All the same, it will take longer, you will need more troops so it will cost more, and you're doing it harder than taking them wave by wave.

    Mongol weaknesses
    Taken in small doses the Mongols are not so hard. Yes, it's a challenging battle, but winnable. Note that the AI gave a slight advantage to the Egyptian army (screenshot 5).

    If you look at the composition of the Mongol and Egyptian armies you can see why. Egypt has more heavy cavalry than the Mongols - there were only 2 Heavy Lancers in the first Mongol stack, and the stack was reduced from having sacked Ryazan. Top level heavy cavalry will beat the rest of the Mongol roster. Both sides were on silver experience, and some of the Mameluk archers were gold.

    The Mongols have a definite weakness against lots of experienced heavy cavalry.

    This is mainly due to their having foot archers making up half their stacks. The Mongols should be rushed on the field, disrupting their lines of archers. They will be marching rather than firing, and will lose in melee to heavy cavalry. Once engaged they can be melee'd by other units, including heavy foot archers or infantry.

    Russia is a great faction to take on the Mongols in the field. Tsar's Guard are better armoured, the Dvor are better than the Heavy Archers. Dismounted Dvor are tougher than Mongol Infantry, and do the same damage with missiles.

    I've fought them in the field with Poles, Russians, Turks, English, French, Danes, Byzantines, and probably others. The easiest factions are those with heavy horse archers, i.e. the Russians, Byzantines, and Egyptians. The Turks are near.

    Handling fast Mongol Horse Archers with Alan Light Cavalry
    Key is handling their fast Horse Archers. I use several units of Alan Merc Cavalry for just this purpose, because they too are fast, and they can catch and beat the Mongol Horse Archers in melee. They can also trap the Mongol Heavy Archers, but not beat them in melee.

    You can also outshoot the Horse Archers with units like Ottoman Infantry, Longbowmen, Dismounted Dvor, Byz and Venetian Guard. These units can also take a charge if they have to. It's difficult with the Pavise Xbows, because their rate of fire is too slow.

    The Egyptian Unit Roster
    This was my first time with Egypt, as their roster had never appealed to me either. This changed in the course of the campaign, as I bonded with the units. Hashashim made all the difference to their infantry in the early game, once I got past the "fantasy unit" block I had.

    Mameluk Archers are an awesome unit - one of the best in the game. Mameluk cavalry are solid, and better than Feudal Knights. The Royal Mameluks are on an equal top tier with Tsar's Guard, Polish Guard, Qapukulu, Christian Guard etc., with the slight differences in armour vs attack that distinguish them.

    They did the business against the Mongols :d

    @crzyrndm - I've never tried defending a city with the Egyptians, but now you mention it they're not an obvious choice for such a task ^^

    3rd Wave
    I also fought the 3rd and final wave in the field. This was not so interesting as an example, but I do have the screenshots if anyone is interested.

    Briefly, there were 4 stacks, again in Bulgar. Egypt separated them into 2 lots of 2 when a gap opened in their progress by blocking the rear two units. The first 2 stacks were trapped against a river, and attacked with 3 stacks of Egyptians, now mostly at gold experience due to careful merging and retraining from wave 2.

    With nowhere to retreat the first 2 Mongol stacks were completely destroyed. The 2nd two stacks were weaker, although they had the rocket launchers. These were also attacked and defeated, and a final half stack remained, headed by the Khan. Egyptian assassins took him out and the Mongols were completely finished.
    Last edited by FootSoldier; November 18, 2011 at 12:13 AM.
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  6. #6
    eXistenZ's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Fighting Mongols in the Field - Egypt

    I did it once as egypt. you know when the mongols invade its first 1.5 stacks on the turn they invade. if you can annihilate those on the same turn, they are dead for a few turns and respawn in russia :p

  7. #7

    Default Re: Fighting Mongols in the Field - Egypt

    I found that fighting mongols with western european armies are easier than countering them with HA factions.

    Counter mongol army consists of Inf xbows (target HA), inf poleaxe knights (target Hvy cav), some swordsmen (general porpuse infanty just in case) and few units of heavy cavalry (target foot archers). You can also add some light cavalry or/and arty if you feel like it. Barely ever loose more than 1/3 of my army fighting full stack of mongols in open field.

    Strenght of mongols is their numbers. That's it. Alltough I really like to play defender of chrisendom against hordes of those savages ;D
    Last edited by ... where did it run?; November 18, 2011 at 05:35 PM.

  8. #8
    Double A's Avatar person man
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    Default Re: Fighting Mongols in the Field - Egypt

    You lost 900 cavalry. You would have (at most) as much infantry if you fought them in a city, and infantry is a lot cheaper than cavalry.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Fighting Mongols in the Field - Egypt

    I always fight Mongols on the field. Much more interesting. 900 cavalrymen is nothing when gold tends to rain from the sky after about 30 turns or so.

    Here are my screenshots fighting the mongols, with Egypt

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post10458561
    Last edited by Aeratus; November 19, 2011 at 05:03 PM.

  10. #10
    Parzival2211's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Fighting Mongols in the Field - Egypt

    My PC never manages to run 3v3 stacks. First of all, you have to allow the AI to control the 2nd and 3rd stack of yours, right?
    2ndly, your PC must be able to manage...


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Fighting Mongols in the Field - Egypt

    I never fight them in the field since they often outnumber you and have superior cavalry. I rather see them sieging me and then smash them with infantry at the gates. Sorry I dont have pics
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Fighting Mongols in the Field - Egypt

    Use light cavalry to stop their mounted archers.

    Then charge with hvy cavalry.

    Use pikes to stop their heavy cavalry.

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