Socrates and the Apology

[Belisarius]

Well as part of my “Systems Of Knowledge” examination I had to read The Apology, I must say it is a rather interesting insight into the mind of a philosopher and does have many relevant messages even today. I was wondering if anyone else read this and can maybe better educate me on Socrates. I find many references to Religion and ethics as well as politics and Athenian Democracy, regardless, what are your opinions on The Apology?

For those who have not read it - http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/GREECE/APOLOGY.HTM

That’s a translated version.

:wink:

[Jesus The Inane]

It was an interesting book. I especially liked the ending; "The hour of departure has arrived, and we go our separate ways, I to die, and you to live. Which of these two is better only God knows."

It is interesting to note how Socrates decides to stay in Athens and die, instead of leave Athens and live...

[Belisarius]

Some Other interesting Posts -

Quote 1: "'can make the weaker argument defeat the stronger.'" Line 18c

Quote 2: "one simply has to conduct one's defense and argue one's case against and invisible opponent...." Line 18d

Quote 3: "proclaiming that he is walking on air, and uttering a great deal of other nonsense about things of which I know nothing whatsoever." Line 19c

Quote 4: "the very fact that they were poets made them think that they had a perfect understanding of all other subjects, of which they were totally ignorant." Line 22c

Quote 5: "on the strength of their technical proficiency they claimed a perfect understanding of every other subject...." Line 22d

Quote 6: "whenever I succeed in disproving another person's claim to wisdom in a given subject, the bystanders assume that I know everything about that subject myself." Line 23a

Quote 7: "summons people to stand their trial on frivolous grounds, and professes concern and keen anxiety in matters about which he has never had the slightest interest." Line 24c

Quote 8: "The heroes who died at Troy would be poor creatures, especially the son of Thetis. He, if you remember, made so light of danger in comparison with incurring dishonor that when his goddess mother warned him, eager as he was to kill Hector, in some such words as these, I fancy, 'My son, if you avenge your comrade Patroclus's death and kill Hector, you will die yourself; Next after Hector is thy fate prepared,'--when he heard this warning, he made light of his death and danger, being much more afraid of an ignoble life and of failing to avenge his friends. 'Let me die forthwith,' said he, 'when I have requited the villain, rather than remain here by the beaked ships to be mocked, a burden on the ground.'" Line 28c

Quote 9: "'Wealth does not bring goodness, but goodness brings wealth and every other blessing, both to the individual and to the State.'" Line 30b

Quote 10: "as though it were a large thoroughbred horse which because of its great size is inclined to be lazy and needs the stimulation of some stinging fly." Line 30e

Quote 11: "No man on earth who conscientiously opposes either you or any other organized democracy, and flatly prevents a great many wrongs and illegalities from taking place in the state to which he belongs, can possibly escape with his life." Line 31e

Quote 12: "life without this sort of examination is not worth living...." Line 38a

[Ecclesiastes]

life without this sort of examination is not worth living....

So true, so true.

[Tom Paine]

Quote 12: "life without this sort of examination is not worth living...." Line 38a

Being one of my previous signatures; "ho de anexetastos bios ou biotos anthropoi" to transliterate.

[Jesus The Inane]

Quote 10: "as though it were a large thoroughbred horse which because of its great size is inclined to be lazy and needs the stimulation of some stinging fly." Line 30e

Not sure if I remember correctly, but didn't Socrates compared himself like a fly who bugs a cow or something like that? Meaning; that the cow/animal is the people of Athens... and by bugging them he helps them... something like that.

"ho de anexetastos bios ou biotos anthropoi"

Or is it? In the end is about pleasure, we wouldn't examined our own lives if we didn't get pleasure out of it.

[Ecclesiastes]

I think that differs for all of us. Mine is not pleasure. More like trying to understand everything. A family with some children.

Did anyone get the feeling that Socrates had it coming by incessantly defending himself and so thouroughly proving his accusers wrong. The people of Athens seemed to want him gone, not dead. But by going on and on about the nature of justice and wisdom he seemed to tick off the jurors enough that they found him guilty.

This seems to be the only reason I can surmise that he was convicted. Any thoughts?

Making a martyr of oneself increases your popularity enormously as he would've known.

[Tom Paine]

Or is it? In the end is about pleasure, we wouldn't examined our own lives if we didn't get pleasure out of it.

I disagree. Worth of living is not the same as pleasure from living. We examine our lives because we are driven to, driven by our natures, but this does not mean we derive pleasure from such examination.

[Ummon]

I disagree. Worth of living is not the same as pleasure from living. We examine our lives because we are driven to, driven by our natures, but this does not mean we derive pleasure from such examination.

Furthermore, examination is required for synthesis of opposites, which leads to more pleasure, and better living (but not as the main result).

[Tom Paine]

Furthermore, examination is required for synthesis of opposites, which leads to more pleasure, and better living (but not as the main result).

It leads to it, sometimes, but sometimes the examination can lead to melancholia; it depends on the result of the examination, and what is examined.

[IamthePope]

Did anyone get the feeling that Socrates had it coming by incessantly defending himself and so thouroughly proving his accusers wrong. The people of Athens seemed to want him gone, not dead. But by going on and on about the nature of justice and wisdom he seemed to tick off the jurors enough that they found him guilty.

This seems to be the only reason I can surmise that he was convicted. Any thoughts?

[Tom Paine]

I think he was convicted at least in part because he was challenging the mores and ideas of the time in a way they found dangerous, ie a way which was popular and caught on among the youth...

[Ummon]

The opinion of Calanos (Indian yogi consulted on this matter by Alexander the Great) was that he respected the law too much. Socrates own daimon used to tell him "to make more music".

Said this, you should check the Phaedo as well, which describes his death. One of the best, and completes the discourse of the Apology very well. I read them all in my time.

[Ummon]

Now, that is surprisingly very, very correct.

Megalomania and Melancholia are the possible two stages which befall on the searcher halfway through the road to self-accomplishment. One though hides the other in secret, and vice versa. Two other opposites to reconcile.

And no, this is not off topic: this is all post-platonic stuff, and thus Socrates-related.

[Tom Paine]

Now, that is surprisingly very, very correct.

Other than the word surprisingly, I'm flattered.

Megalomania and Melancholia are the possible two stages which befall on the searcher halfway through the road to self-accomplishment. One though hides the other in secret, and vice versa. Two other opposites to reconcile.

However they are not the only pitfalls and can sometimes be the conclusion; if reconciled, megalomania and melancholy, can become a more powerful force for personal self-immolation than self-improvement; when contemplating one's life, one needs a powerful flashlight lest one be lost in the "darkness of man's heart".


And its on topic because we're analysing a line from (supposedly) Socrates himself, though whether it originated with Socrates or came from Plato is impossible to be certain about.

[Ummon]

Other than the word surprisingly, I'm flattered.

Surprise is unavoidable, since you are not supposed to know that so soon.

However they are not the only pitfalls and can sometimes be the conclusion; if reconciled, megalomania and melancholy, can become a more powerful force for personal self-immolation than self-improvement; when contemplating one's life, one needs a powerful flashlight lest one be lost in the dark.

I suggest that you search online for the Gnostic Ouroboros, or chain of pyramids. It's an interesting concept.

[Ecclesiastes]

Surprise is unavoidable, since you are not supposed to know that so soon.

He knows but I doubt, just like me and every other young kid, if he has experienced it (fully).

SM: What do you have in mind with a flashlight? What stops one from hurting himself? Character.

[Ummon]

He knows but I doubt, just like me and every other young kid, if he has experienced it (fully).

SM: What do you have in mind with a flashlight? What stops one from hurting himself? Character.

It is not your time to experience it. Live life, and then search for enlightenment, or however you wish to call it. If though you really can't do so, it's better that you search thoroughly the sooner you can.

http://www.spirasolaris.ca/sbb4f.html

This "would be" a page on the theme of the Ouroboros. A bad page, but that's what you can find online.

[Tom Paine]

He knows but I doubt, just like me and every other young kid, if he has experienced it (fully).

One can never, in life, no matter how old one grows, fully experience something.

SM: What do you have in mind with a flashlight? What stops one from hurting himself? Character.

No, not character; not strength of mind. The stronger the mind, the less flexible; yet a weak mind is too flexible. A strong mind, but not too strong; a strong sense of right and wrong, a strong sense of self, but once more neither can be too strong.

Ummon, were you thinking of this, just to check [found here: http://www.crystalinks.com/ouroboros.html]?

The ouroboros is a dramatic symbol for the integration and assimilation of the opposite, i.e. of the shadow. This 'feed-back' process is at the same time a symbol of immortality, since it is said of the uroboros that he slays himself and brings himself to life, fertilises himself and gives birth to himself. He symbolises the One, who proceeds from the clash of opposites, and he therefore constitutes the secret of the prima materia which [...] unquestionably stems from man's unconscious

[Ecclesiastes]

I don't think one can stop when one has begun philosophizing.