TATW Unofficial patch 4.0

[leo.civil.uefs]

Unfortunate addition

Why? You think is too exhagerated? Too out of lore?

[nadalio]

Hey Leo i always dream to see such diversity in the third age units!!!

Do you think is it possible to use a model of a troll or a great beast and make him act like a ram for breaking wooden gates?
or use a catapult animatios with trolls and ents models so they could throw rocks?

[leo.civil.uefs]

Hey Leo i always dream to see such diversity in the third age units!!!

Thats the point. Infantry against infantry, with ocasional cavalry and some archers got boring.
Now with chariots, beornings, great beasts etc, things will turn more dynamic.

Do you think is it possible to use a model of a troll or a great beast and make him act like a ram for breaking wooden gates?

I think its possible, there is a good chance. Though is far from my capacities.

or use a catapult animatios with trolls and ents models so they could throw rocks?

Maybe making a catapult using a troll models instead of the engine, yes, I think so.


However, if Im ever going to try something relate to this, I will make troll units throw rocks. Its totally possible, we only need to resize skeletons from animations, something I dont know how to do.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now, everyone who likes my submod go and throw this guy some reputation. He has made helmets for the gundabad army!

[CalamariGhost]

Why? You think is too exhagerated? Too out of lore?

That's the case, I think.

Truth be told, I'm not a fan of them either. Dwarves are supposed to be strong mass of heavy infantry with supporting artillery and archers/crossbowmen, to soften their enemy a bit before "Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!" begins. Some cavalry is good for them, for pursits, goats or Dale riders - no matter, as long as it rare, like Withwnar's SAUS mod rare. But recruitable goats and chariots...

[Veteraan]

Now, everyone who likes my submod go and throw this guy some reputation. He has made helmets for the gundabad army!

Thrown a rep his way!

[Dutch-Balrog]

Why? You think is too exhagerated? Too out of lore?

Just personal taste, i'm a huge lore nerd, and i just can't accept dwarves using cavalry and charriots lol. Kinda makes their faction generic at best.

[leo.civil.uefs]

OK guys I got your points.

My policy about adding stuff to my mod is a ballance of movie stuff, lore and finally gaming stuff.

Goat riders is a concept I would never think by myself, its just that the movies brough it and they look cool.
Yet, Tolkien himself wrote that dwarves would never ride any animal, so yes, its anti lore. But its movie stuff and a cool feature that CAN be added to the game engine.

Now for chariots, not only they are extremely cool but I also think they dont offend the lore. How do dwarves make trade? Not by pulling loaded wagons by themselves for miles, I suppose.
As far I know there is nothing in the lore that is against dwarven chariots. I mean, Tolkien never said anyting about dwarven pans but it is reasonable to suppose that dwarves do cook using them, right? Just because its not written in the lore it does not mean that imagining it is anti lore (like the pans).

I dont remember anything in the lore about orc riders above great beasts, these animals were used only to pull GROND, even in the movies.
So what should we do? Give up having such a fantastic feature, allowed by the game engine, just for the sake of "respecting the lore strictly" does not sound rational to me.

I can see no lore offense in imagining that the orcs used the gorgoroth great beast as a mount too.

Dont take me wrong, I try to respect the lore the more I can, but TATW is a video game and must be fun. If we stick with what is written in the books, we could never make movies or games. But again, if you take a look in the entire stuff of my mod you will notice that I try to be as discrete as I can about adding inventive stuff. Just as an example, from time to time I look at my dwarven generic settlement and think it is "too large" and disconected from the lore, and yet, we need it.

What to say about the huge statues in Dain's Halls? They are like a second Argonath in middle earth, and thats really disconnected from the lore. But take a look at it inside the game and tell me if you want me to remove them...

Tolkien never gave any description even about Erebor look, nor about Dain's halls and many other places. Middle earth is huge and we must imagine how things would be if Tolkien ever described them.

Finally, both goat riders and chariots will be recruitable in my submod, but only in mountain regions and with a very low rate. You can only recruit one each 17 turns.

Im tired of infantry against infantry, biped units and repetitive battles, I want some variations.

PS: All these arguments sounds a little bit cynical since I once added boar and bear riders. LOL. But they are gone now, you guys should never had allowed me to implement them... By the way boar chariots would be cool for orocarni dwarves, but Im not going to add them because dwarves and Rhun already have chariots and I want to keep faction uniqueness. The same goes to a high elven chariot pulled by horses, would be cool, but we already have enough. Well, I feel tempted to add them, but will not do it for now...

[Ngugi]

Help me here, guys.

I dont want to create new units for gundabad faction. My policy since I started dealing with units is to keep the 3.2 vanilla units' stats and only change their models and textures. A way how to keep the game ballanced.

However, now Im facing the following situation:

Gundabad faction does not have units with stats strong enough to fit that large well armored movie like models Im implementing. It will be weird to see a heavily armored guy dying too soon or unable to kill an enemy unit.

So my idea is: Increasing these units stats while decreasing their men number (unit size).

Would this keep the game ballanced?

I mean, 10 men with 5 strenght is like 5 men with 10 strenght, right?

That design has practical complications, as individual animations are in play, not merely stats. A superior unit can be slain by an inferior unit if the numbers are in the inferior unit's favour; learned this when MOS tested to make mini-units of elite Elves, and soon reverted back hehe.
The reason is that when a single soldier is attacked it activates a defensive animation. In order to attack, and kill enemies, the soldier must conduct an attack animation. If the superior soldier is under constant attacks, as from several inferior soldiers, he will be "locked" in defensive animations. Due to better defensives he might live for a while, but as he rarely will be able to make an attack [animation] and therefore he can not kill his inferior enemies. In time the inferior unit will have killed off the superior unit.

Ergo, on paper 10 men with 5 strenght is like 5 men with 10 strenght, correct (if it and the enemy unit has equal numbers), but on the battlefield the now smaller unit will risk to perform far worse than the stats implies.
In the rough I'd say that for infantry 10 men with 5 strenght is like 7 men with 10 strenght, though that would require some testing. For cavalry, who can cycle charge, and missile units, the exchange works better.

[leo.civil.uefs]

2.4 released.

Enjoy and post screenshots!

[Lusitanio]

Animations works
Crew throw axes
Chariot trample and roll over enemies

Awesome unit Leo! The animals look a bit fat xD

[leo.civil.uefs]

Awesome unit Leo! The animals look a bit fat xD

They're like cartoonish, yes. But they were not made by me, I just took it from another mod (cant even remember wich one)

[leo.civil.uefs]

Found a bug. Game will crash when loading a battle with gundabad bodyguard unit.

HOTFIX:

Download this file and place it inside

Medieval II Total War\mods\Third_Age_3\data\unit_models\_generals_and_captains\generals

[leo.civil.uefs]

Are these human units in gundabad army lore acurrate? TATW 3.2 brings them.

[CalamariGhost]

Are these human units in gundabad army lore acurrate? TATW 3.2 brings them.

Men of Rhudaur? Somewhat.
They definitely existed until the middle of the Third Age. When Angmar Wars ended in 1975 T.A., "so utterly was Angmar defeated, that not a man, nor an orc of that realm remained west of the Mountains". It seems that the hillmen of Rhudaur shared Angmar's fate: "all were destroyed in the war that brought the North Kingdom to its end". Loremasters may correct me, but I think those quotes are accurate description of Rhudaur's fate.
Nevertheless, according to lore, Eriador is very, very, very lightly populated during the War of the Ring, and is not able to sustain mighty realms with massive armies, nor unite kingdoms and rebuild cities, yet does all of this in TATW.

[leo.civil.uefs]

Men of Rhudaur? Somewhat.
They definitely existed until the middle of the Third Age. When Angmar Wars ended in 1975 T.A., "so utterly was Angmar defeated, that not a man, nor an orc of that realm remained west of the Mountains". It seems that the hillmen of Rhudaur shared Angmar's fate: "all were destroyed in the war that brought the North Kingdom to its end". Loremasters may correct me, but I think those quotes are accurate description of Rhudaur's fate.

Well let it be so. Ill not remove them.

Nevertheless, according to lore, Eriador is very, very, very lightly populated during the War of the Ring, and is not able to sustain mighty realms with massive armies, nor unite kingdoms and rebuild cities, yet does all of this in TATW.

Yes. As I said before, my mod is a mix of lore, movies and gaming needs.
Having eriador as a populated area ready to sustain armies is a need, otherwise they could not be a faction.

[Ngugi]

They definitely existed until the middle of the Third Age. When Angmar Wars ended in 1975 T.A., "so utterly was Angmar defeated, that not a man, nor an orc of that realm remained west of the Mountains". It seems that the hillmen of Rhudaur shared Angmar's fate: "all were destroyed in the war that brought the North Kingdom to its end". Loremasters may correct me, but I think those quotes are accurate description of Rhudaur's fate.

Correct I may not, though will note that it's plausible that the remaining, eastern Angmarians re-settled Rhudaur after they were driven from the Vale of Anduin; they survived after all and we just do not know where they went:

There the Dúnedain were few, and power had been seized by an evil lord of the Hill-men, who was in secret league with Angmar.- 13th century, Appendix A; I; II

... Rhudaur was occupied by evil Men subject to Angmar... - 1409, Appendix A; I; III

when therefore [Éothéod, Rohirrim's forefathers] heard of the overthrow of the Witch-king, they sought more room in the North, and drove away the remnants of the people of Angmar on the east side of the Mountains. - 1977, Appendix A; II

Nevertheless, according to lore, Eriador is very, very, very lightly populated during the War of the Ring, and is not able to sustain mighty realms with massive armies, nor unite kingdoms and rebuild cities, yet does all of this in TATW.

A modders primary duty is to make a fun and stable game. Second to that, if intending to make a good Tolkien game, comes adherence to lore, or as I use to put it, a good Tolkien game attempt to be as lore-ish as possible.
Perfect adherence can work in say an adventure or RTS game, but not for a good TW game. There would be no High-elf armies, we couldn't have any serious action in Eriador, the good factions can't win a military victory but at best delay the defeat etc. Tolkien did not create a game manual when he wrote LotR after all, and therefore artistic liberty is required for the sake of the gameplay experience

[CalamariGhost]

Correct I may not, though will note that it's plausible that the remaining, eastern Angmarians re-settled Rhudaur after they were driven from the Vale of Anduin; they survived after all and we just do not know where they went:

Maybe. I always thought that Eotheod settling northern part of the Vale of Anduin was the final chapter of the Angmar Wars. Sort of finishing strike against Angmar, even suggested by Gondor, perhaphs. And with all that "Wild Fields" feeling about both Eriador and Angmar from LotR... Maybe.

A modders primary duty is to make a fun and stable game. Second to that, if intending to make a good Tolkien game, comes adherence to lore, or as I use to put it, a good Tolkien game attempt to be as lore-ish as possible.
Perfect adherence can work in say an adventure or RTS game, but not for a good TW game. There would be no High-elf armies, we couldn't have any serious action in Eriador, the good factions can't win a military victory but at best delay the defeat etc. Tolkien did not create a game manual when he wrote LotR after all, and therefore artistic liberty is required for the sake of the gameplay experience

That was my point as well, just needed to formulate it better.
Through, looking at some TATW submods(particulary DaC), I can't get away from the feeling, that even artistic liberty could use some limits.

[leo.civil.uefs]

A modders primary duty is to make a fun and stable game. Second to that, if intending to make a good Tolkien game, comes adherence to lore, or as I use to put it, a good Tolkien game attempt to be as lore-ish as possible.
Perfect adherence can work in say an adventure or RTS game, but not for a good TW game. There would be no High-elf armies, we couldn't have any serious action in Eriador, the good factions can't win a military victory but at best delay the defeat etc. Tolkien did not create a game manual when he wrote LotR after all, and therefore artistic liberty is required for the sake of the gameplay experience

Perfect! You get it.
This is my main guideline when modding (though I once added boar and bear riders I should have been banned from the forums because of that).

Through, looking at some TATW submods(particulary DaC), I can't get away from the feeling, that even artistic liberty could use some limits.

I get your point. This is a good reason to not choose DAC. I also think like this and thats why I develop my own submod. But it is no reason to propose any censorshipt to DAC (and Im not saying you do). Its by far the most played submod that proposed to continue developing TATW (maybe REFORGED?), people love it the way it is. Vox Populi, Vox Dei.

There is room for everyone in the TATW universe, and one who is not satisfyed with the current existing mods can start one by himself, thats what I did.



Just to illustrate this struggle, every time I look at the giant statues in my Dain's Halls custom settlement, I think: If there was such a thing as big as the Argonath in Middle Earth, Tolkien would surely describe it, so what I did here is anti-lore...

But then I realize that limiting creativity when creating custom settlements would result in poor, souless generic settlements spawn around, just to justify the lor respect. So lets respect the lore, but never forget that this is a damn game.

[MIKE GOLF]

Just to illustrate this struggle, every time I look at the giant statues in my Dain's Halls custom settlement, I think: If there was such a thing as big as the Argonath in Middle Earth, Tolkien would surely describe it, so what I did here is anti-lore...

But then I realize that limiting creativity when creating custom settlements would result in poor, souless generic settlements spawn around, just to justify the lor respect. So lets respect the lore, but never forget that this is a damn game.

I couldn't agree more! But I ask, why stop at giant statues in Dain's Halls when there is yet Dol Amroth and Umbar as well as a host of other settlements waiting to be customized and brought to life by your creative hand?

[leo.civil.uefs]

I couldn't agree more! But I ask, why stop at giant statues in Dain's Halls when there is yet Dol Amroth and Umbar as well as a host of other settlements waiting to be customized and brought to life by your creative hand?

Old leo is a tired fox willing to retire.
I know I said this already like 5 years ago but this time is different.

Besides, there are more telented guys making custom settlements now, REFORGED TEAM and ARKAY from DAC, this last promised that dol amroth and grey heavens are in his "to do" list.

Let it for the youth, my hands are not the same from before.




Now changing the matter. Im playing TATW in a 49'' 4K TV and its a totally new experience. Not only things are far bigger and you can se a lot more, but the colors depth are quite better than in a conventional monitor. I'm realizing how beautiful the game is as never before.

And that makes me remember one of the motivations I lost my interest in the total war series after MED2. The graphics of the new engines.

The new graphics, like in Rome 2, are so good that it ends up BAD. They made it so realistical that now we have extremely realistical... plastic models. Seriously. Units look like dumbs from cloth stores, the colors are saturated and too bright, the entire things looks artificial, there is no depth. I know it can sound absurd but I prefer MED2 graphics, some times I get sunset battles and the shaders are just fantastic. Sometimes I feel like I could touch my dwarves.