Ever lost a defensive siege battle?

[Parzival2211]

After years of RTW and M2TW, I lost my first defensive siege battle ever - thought it wasn't possible.

I'm Spain, owning all of the Iberian peninsula, France, Italy apart from Sicily (Pope), Western N Africa and the Crusader States including Bagdad and Alexandria. When moving my armies against the Danes (HRE is my ally), 3 full stacks of Scottish armies cross the Channel and lay siege to Bruges (they kicked the English off the British Islands, England only owns Norway at this point). I never had any trouble with Scotland, we even fought the English simultaneously, and suddenly they attack my city!

A 4th Scottish army landed near Antwerp - also full stack. The 4 armies consist of family members including king and heir, more knights, but mostly heavy pikes, heavy inf and catapults and tribuchets.

The Bruges garrison consists of 1 general, 1 unit mounted crossbows, 5 crossbows, 2 sword militia, 2 dismounted knights, 1 pike militia, 4 spear militia. My best troops had moved on to Denmark taking Aarhus where my monster general was killed by an assassin (also never happened before, and one turn later, another general gets murdered in Zagreb, ever happened to you?)

I try to assemble and recruit better forces to help my besieged comrades, but just before reaching Bruges, the 3 armies attack. First, they bombard my walls and break 4 holes into them on 3 sides. Then, the 1st army attacks. I had to spread my defenders and struggled from the beginning. Nevertheless, I managed to defeat the 1st army suffering heavy losses, especially my militias and the crossbows, which were decimated by the artillery. When the 2nd and 3rd army attacked, I couldn't hold the Swiss cheese walls and retreated to the narrow streets. There, my men fought well, but in the end, spear militia were no match for the Scottish heavy pikes, and the heavy inf odds were just against me.

It was heart-breaking to watch my men fight to death on the main square, I had never seen such a scene.

Btw, I play VH/M. Have you ever lost a defensive siege battle? Any tips on how I could have done better?

[Silverheart]

Mybe you shouldn´t have spread put your men too much, or perhaps focused your entire defence around the Plaza.
When the enemy comes in such great numbers, and blows your walls to oblivion, there´s really little you can do.
I try to just take out the enemies Family members/Generals and hope that my men can take a sizeable amount of the rest with them.

I had one of those a couple of weeks ago, in my Venetian campaign, and twice quite recently in my Hungarian campaign.
As Venice, I lost to three full armies of Mongol Horde armies coming at the same time - my men were divided up to cover three holes and hold off their ladders and siege towers. My soldiers held out long and well against the horsemen, but they eventually overwhelmed the poor defenders.
There were simply too many of them. On the plus side, I did kill all three of their Family members
As Hungary, I had Marseille and Ajaccio and lost these to Milan, since they were both underdefended.
Both settlements were also completely isolated from the rest of my empire, so they were forced to fend for themselves.
In Ajaccio I had a big bunch of Magyars and Nobles, though, and they did manage to put up a good fight against the Milanese 1600-head army of basically Italian Spear Militia and Genoese Crossbow Militia - a deadly and very potent combination against horse archers.
Also, I was able to get back Marseille as part of a later peace treaty, and they have held out since, although it has been pretty close.

[Parzival2211]

I also managed to kill 4 out of 5 family members, including the king, mostly in the beginning when the bodyguards tried to squeeze through the first gap in the wall, which I managed to defend with my spear militia (although the knights took a horrible toll). Because of this, I think it wasn't too wrong to defend the walls (which was also the only way to make use of my crossbows). Maybe I should have pulled back earlier, since the Scots just had to much firepower and killed lots of pavise crossbows on the walls, which could have been ok in melee as well.

I'm still in shock, I defended settlements against tremendous odds before (see this thread: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...inferno“), but this was just too much and the AI didn't behave as stupid as I expected. I sometimes managed to win defensive siege battles only because the AI simply didn't move to the main square although I hardly had any troops left to defend.

[Sweger]

Sometimes you simply get overwhelmed (mostly by Mongols or Timurids) or if they launch a real surprise attack. My best defence was probably when I manage to defend a castle with only two paesants against two units of dis. feudal knights. But it was a great deal of luck, as their only ram caught fire, so i could defeat them om the walls when the came up with the ladder.

However, defeats, recently in my Teutonic campaign as Denmark, i had a Citadel defended by a few huskarls and dis. feudal knights, when it got besieged by two full stack TO armies consisting more ore less only of Ritterbrüder and artillery. I stood only a minimal chance. I do find the TO the hardest fraction to wage war with, probably since they rely on heavy infantry, which I also normally do as a playing-style, and since they have the same style as I do but with better units, I tend to lose against them when not outnumbering them. Denmark is also a heavy infantry fraction though, so I would need some tips how to wage war against the TO, without the good ranged-light-cavalry-anti-heavy-infantry-units of the Lithuanians, Novgorodians/Russians or Mongols.

[Aeratus]

I lost sieges while playing as Khwarezmians in late era VH/VH, against attacking mongols (SS 6.4).

And in general, I lose a lot of sieges, because I don't maintain very big garrisons.

Sometimes you simply get overwhelmed (mostly by Mongols or Timurids) or if they launch a real surprise attack. My best defence was probably when I manage to defend a castle with only two paesants against two units of dis. feudal knights. But it was a great deal of luck, as their only ram caught fire, so i could defeat them om the walls when the came up with the ladder.

However, defeats, recently in my Teutonic campaign as Denmark, i had a Citadel defended by a few huskarls and dis. feudal knights, when it got besieged by two full stack TO armies consisting more ore less only of Ritterbrüder and artillery. I stood only a minimal chance. I do find the TO the hardest fraction to wage war with, probably since they rely on heavy infantry, which I also normally do as a playing-style, and since they have the same style as I do but with better units, I tend to lose against them when not outnumbering them. Denmark is also a heavy infantry fraction though, so I would need some tips how to wage war against the TO, without the good ranged-light-cavalry-anti-heavy-infantry-units of the Lithuanians, Novgorodians/Russians or Mongols.

Use Gotland Footmen, which are equal to or better than dismounted Ritterbruders for the most part. Gotland Footmen easily beat Ritterbruders on the walls when defending, because two-handers work best when they surround their opponents (because their attack animation gets interrupted less, and their comparatively higher attack is more amplified), and ladder-climbers are always surrounded.

Overall, Ritterbruders are just DCKs with fancier costumes. They aren't even close to units like Forlorn Hope and Giltine's Chosen.

[Blaze of Macedon]

I don't think that was winnable at all, but i guess you could have taken one more stack with you if you had given up on those walls and just waited in the allies/town center.

BTW what mod are you playing?

[Vampiresbane]

I recently beat off a 3 stack siege attack by the tumurids. All I have to say are three things:

1. My empire for a couple manganols. These things TEAR massed enemies apart. Just make sure to not have any units on the walls in front of them, friendly fire happens quite often. I took one unit and waited behind the 2nd set of walls in a citadel and killed half a tumrid army by ITSELF. It went from no experience and 40 soldiers to 3 silver chevrons and 25 soldiers in that single fight.
2. Know your enemies biggest weakest and have a couple key units to exploit it. For my fight, I used Ottoman Archers to send fire arrows at one Tumrid army that contained mainly elephants with some infantry. The fire arrows made the elephants panic, killing most of their infantry, and the Ottoman Archers, who are basically just infantry that can shoot arrows, were used to clean up the rest.
3. If you're defending a castle, exploit your layers extensively. I usually don't defend the outter wall at ALL except for a few horses that can man the towers and then fall back when either the gate has fallen or their cannons start punching holes in my walls. Make sure to not keep any unit behind the 2nd wall or 3rd wall's gates for when you retreat your horses back. If you do, that gate will stay open and your enemy will pour in right after you. Another good unit to use besides horses are archers. Put them on locations that hit attackers streaming in newly taken layer, but fairly close to locations that allow for a quick retreat. Takes practice, but can work fairly well.

[eugenioso]

yes ive lost tons of defensive battles. i usually lose when i cant get in a decent sized defensive force into a garrison. its no big deal however, as i usually retake it not long after.

[crzyrndm]

Mongols, a few times, when I try and defend that city right near where they spawn. I might manage to hold off the first three or four armies, but when they besiege again with no time for replenishment and you've barely got enough units left to keep the population under control...
Probably another couple where the AI has actually worked for once and managed to send multiple stacks on Crusade/Jihad (Or where I've captured Jerusalem from a rampaging Egypt).

On your fight, I agree with Silverheart. Once they started moving to attack, you should have retreated to the plaza. Trying to defend four sides at once is nigh immpossible. Atleast in the plaza you don't have to worry much about morale. Use cav/Light infantry/archers to man the walls as they approach and get a few extra kills from the towers, but don't stick around to fight them as they enter. Treat the entrances to the plaza similar to a gate and stack your infantry around it for maximum effect on your opponents morale (ie. little triangles).

[PrestigeX]

Only when the AI catches me off guard, and I auto-resolve the battle knowing that my pitiful garrison has no chance at all.

But it is rare for me to lose the battles I actually fight - even with a small force against a large and powerful army - without places Stakes near the gates lol.

1 - defending the walls and gate is not always optimal, deploy in the streets will split your small force but may yield better results - especially with xbow troops that are not always so great on the walls -- shooting the enemy from the side-streets as they all come through the gate and up the central road to the town square.

2 - sacrificial Cavalry -- send out cavalry to attack rams/ladders/towers - usually the AI will stop using that siege equip and focus on the ones it still has in use. (so you could attack all their ladders forcing them to send everyone through the gate, or destroy rams forcing them to use ladders only etc) Usually these cavalry used for this purpose will take extreme casualties -- being shot up by enemy missile troops.

[Parzival2211]

I did send out my cav to destroy the catapults and tribuchets, but there were just too many - and on 3 sides. In the end, I had 12 holes in the walls - 4 on each side. With diferent odds (I only had 1 cav apart from mounted crossbows), destroying the siege equipment tends to work though.

Good idea to place crossbow units in side streets and let them shoot the enemy when they pass. I'll try that next time.

[tudor93]

yep, one of my first campaigns in M2TW as Egypt, the mongols kicked my ass

[Willowran]

veeeeeeeeeeery rarely do i lose a defensive seige, and only to surprise (betrayal) or overwhelming odds (mongols)

i never bother defending the walls (stick a suicide unit up there to activate towers thats it), and i always focus my defense on the center. narrow confinements turns a single rout into an all enemy route. however, my units are almost always considerable weaker statistically... three of my more noticeable defeats:

1:v mongols. they annhilated my wall, destroying literally everything along one side and a couple from another. i was defending as venice with mainly italian militia, heavy inf and archers. i won, but with 70% casualties. next turn they besieged again...was completely whiped out.

2:v hungary. same game as the above, around the same time, too -_-
hungary was allied but attacked a city of mine with a bunch of feudal knights. this was completely and utterly unexpected...my settlement was only defended by militia and a couple crossbows. the feudal knights just don't seem to want to route...lost that city too...

3: (same game, roughly same time -_-) defending jeurusalem from the crusading hordes. heavy venice inf and archers. whiped out everything they sent against me, was feeling all satisfied... then poland came around for round two, with two stacks rather then one. my rienforcements were still a turn away...

[Emperor Tom]

I cant remember who I was fighting exactly (either Moors or Milan) and I was Sicily. I was defending Cagliari and was outnumbered 5 to 1. I remember killing many a man with my Muslin archers before they took the walls. I told my archers to run away from the wall and waited till they got the gates opened and charged and killed many of those fools with a charge of Italian Spear Militia and then Cavalry Militia and then when had the archers back in place firing on their back side. I lost the Town BUT I killed 93% of their men, so was it a real vistory for them? No, and 5 turns later I took it back and got 2 of their cities (I remember it was Moors now). I took Algiers and Tunis a few turns later.

[lolIsuck]

Not a lot, only one time I recall actually. I was playing Denmark and early on was at war with Scotland, England, HRE and Poland (bastards all attacked me) All I owned was Arhus, Stockholm and Riga and fighting everybody off on Arhus and Riga. Suddenly a huge England stack lands near Stockholm and besieges it, my garrison sucked so I lost, took it back a few turns later.

edit: deploying on and around the plaza is way better then trying to hold the walls when very outnumbered.
Your troops won't run, won't be crushed by artillery and you have all your units close instead of spread out over the city. I had a great victory as Silvan Elves in TATW that way, defending against full Harad and Mordor stacks. My archers owned most of them though with the few infantry units I had holding the enemy off

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

Fighting at the walls is a complete waste of time, especially if the enemy has the means to breach them, which is basically always the case.

I failed twice to win this battle, when I tried to fight it at the walls. In the central plaza it was a different story.
http://www.youtube.com/user/geoffrey...22/C9FmS77D_fI

[gaunty14]

After years of RTW and M2TW, I lost my first defensive siege battle ever - thought it wasn't possible.

Pah get used it, can be quite a good roleplaying type thing actually, a while ago back when I was using vannila Med2. I was playing as France and I had taken control of the Holy Land when the Mongol Hordes arrived, they besieged Antioch with three stacks and my favourite general (max loyalty, piety, chivalry etc) was its commander.

It was an epic battle which I one due to the time limit, I destroyed 2 of the stacks and badly mauled the third but alas ont he enxt turn Antioch was besieged again by another three stacks and with a gate already breached they swarmed into the city and I had a magnificant last stand in the roads around the centre plaza.

After the fall of Antioch, I began a crusade agaisnt the city led by the dead generals three sons who annhilated every Mongol stack in Asia Minor in honour of their father

also a few pictures of another epic and one sided seige I had
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=358851

edit: little hint if besieged my multiple armies with seige weapons, camp in the centre and do not defend the walls as you'll be overwhelmed. If you have cavalry stick them close to a gatehouse so the towers operate but run away once the enemy get to close etc

[Sulfurion Blackfyre]

The only major siege battle I lost was in vanilla when playing as Portugal. I had just conquered most of the Holy Land and the Mongol hordes arrive at Antioch, where I had a full stack of mostly spear militias/crossbow militias with some jinetes and DFK's. They attacked with 4 full stacks, and even tough I destroyed 2 of their stacks and partially destroyed a bit of the other 2, I lost (it was glorious tough, the last stand on the city square being attacked by all 4 sides by hordes of horsemen ). I had 4 units of Aventuros 1 turn away from Antioch, if only I had managed to get them there, I'd have won for sure.

Other than that, the only times I've lost any settlements is when they attack you where you're not expecting them, when you have just a bunch of militias keeping order and thus have no hope of actually defending successfully. (Doesn't matter much because I usually take the cities back some turns later)

[Shea O'Gorath]

No but very close. Playing as the Byzantines in the crusades expansion i was only preparing for the fourth crusade when it arrived. All three armies besieging. Since they set up on three different sides I knew holding the walls was useless so i set up my troops in a way that if one was engaged another could flank. Lots of micro-management. I had 1665 men. Venice had 3339. After about three quarters i won. It was nail biting stuff. I lost my general as we were at one point pushed back to the plaza as i had about 500 men on all sides defending against 1574 men on the front, 954 on the left and 811 on the right. I was rushing men from one side to another when I would gain or loose an advantage and when the left folded I thought all was lost but quick planing allowed me to pull back and after very close few minutes their right folded when their right army general was cut down. from their i cut of their armies leaving nothing but ragged broken men to escape the hell they were now fighting in. After that it was a matter of regrouping the men in the plaza and dispatching the freshest men to take their siege equipment.

[Old Geezer]

I just had a family member assassinated yesterday. If it ever happened before, it was at least 3 years ago. I usually manage to underman a settlement enough every 3 or 4 games and pay so little attention that I lose in an assault. I have, at times, manned Antioch or Kiev with a force which will not dissuade the Mongols or Timurids (Normally nothing will deter them unless you have super strong units in a targeted home city and they have taken some losses. Then they may go looking for another homeland) to lure them into taking the city. Then, once they have to defend they are easy prey - especially to armored pikemen or stout spearmen. I think that I learn a lot more from my loses than the wins. I learned how bad nasty Jinetes were by trying to catch and kill them with a "normal" army of infantry and mailed knights.