Latin Language during and after the Late Antiquity. Originally: Pronounciation of Aetius

[BroskiDerpman]

Right in time for around the first anniversary of this thread! Bravo!

[PSEUDO ROMANUS]

Right in time for around the first anniversary of this thread! Bravo!

@ Diocle:
Nice links! Thanks for sharing .

[Diocle]

Thanks Pseudo Romanus! Sono felice di sapere che ti interessa!

Sorry I repeat the Links, because this is Internet: New page = New Age, and I thinks that this site is really useful:
1- To read authors like Ammianus appreciating the sounds of his Late Latin.
2- To try to understand the complex and not easy problems concerning the developments of the Latin Language into the Modern Romance Languages, from an English perspective.
3- To try to understand, from an English point of view, why we, Romance speakers, affirm that we are speaking the XXI century Spoken Latin.
4- To read it because it's a wonderful site!


This is the Homepage: Orbis Latinus http://www.orbilat.com/index.html


Links: Latin at the End of the Imperial Age:
http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Lat...of_Case_System

Latin in Pre-Carolingian Gaul:
http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Lat...orberg/02.html

Latin in Italy: the 6th through the 10th centuries
http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Lat...orberg/03.html

Latin in Africa and Spain: the 6th through the 8th centuries
http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Lat...orberg/04.html

Latin in the Pre-Carolingian British Isles
http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Lat...orberg/05.html

The Carolingian Reform and Latin North of the Alps and Pyrenees Before the Year 1000
http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Lat...orberg/06.html

Medieval Latin After the Year 1000
http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Lat...orberg/07.html

[PSEUDO ROMANUS]

Certamente, mio amico. Certamente

[TW-fanboy]

@ Diocle:
La tua sapienzia della lingua latina é impressionante. Dove hai imparato tantalmente della Latina?
Post scriptum: É Diocleziano il tuo imperatore favorito, ó perche hai selezionato il questo nome?

[Diocle]

I only studied seven years Latin Langage with teachers like Pitbull & Rottweiler !!!

There is many people who studied fifteen years Latin at the Scuola Normale di Pisa, they speak Latin as Italian so,....I'm only a fan of the language of Caesar nothing more.

- My preferred Emperor is Diocletianus!

Thanks for your words and for your italian.

[pirro]

Indeed, spanish has a closer pronuntation to latin than italian... and Ae is pronunced... ae. I studied with an italian during my baccaulerate , and he was annoying when it came to pronuntation. Slighty better than a english

[Diocle]

Thank you pirro for your interest in this old and forgotten thread, that I loved very much.
All the sounds of the Romance Languages have the same 'Nobilitas', the same space in my heart, all the Romance Languages are exemples of the Spoken Latin of the XXI century, so all the Romance Languages are wonderful languages.
I'll not start a fratricidal war between two ancient Romance Languages, sadly I cannot tell that I know Spanish, and this is a great fault by my part, but I can understand Spanish texts and if we speak slowly, we can understand each other, with some Spanish friends I've had the pleasure to meet in my life.

The point of this thread surpassed the initial issue about the pronunciation of the Latin 'AE', and in my intention it was to become a thread about the Latin Language 'tout court' and the frequently not deeply known world of the Romance Languages.

So, now, let me offer you guys, a funny page from the Book of Raymond Queneau, 'Exercises de style', I find it quite appropriate for the occasion (even looking only at the title in itself):

"Macaronique

Sol erat in regione zenithi et calor atmospheri magnissima. Senatus populusque parisiensis sudebant.
Autobi passebant completi. In uno ex supradictis autobibus qui S denominationem portebat, hominem quasi junum, cum collo multi elongato et cum chapito a galono tressato vidi. Iste junior insultavit alterum hominem qui proximus erat: pietinat, inquit, pedes meos post deliberationem animae suae. Tunc sedem libram vidente, cucurrit là.
Sol duas horas in coelo habebat descendues. Sancti Lazari stationem ferrocaminorum passente devant, junum supradictum cum altero ejusdem farinae qui arbiter elegantiarum erat et qui apropo uno ex boutonis capae junioris consilium donebat vidi."

Italian Version in the translation by Umberto Eco:

"Latino Maccheronico

Sol erat in regionem senithi et calor atmospheri magnissima. Senatus populusque parisiensis sudabant. Autobi passabant completi. In uno ex supradictis autobus qui S denominationem portabat, hominem quasi muscardinum cum collo enlongato et cum capillo a cordincula tressata cerclato vidi. Iste junior insultavit alterum hominem qui proximus erat: pietinat, inquit, pedes meos post deliberationem animae tuae. Tunc sedm liberam videns, cucurrit là.
Sol duas horas in coelo habebat descendutus. Sancti Lazari stationem ferroviariam passante davante, jovanottum suparadictum cum altero ejusdem farinae qui arbiter elegantiarum erat et qui de uno ex boutonis cappotti junioris consilium donabat vidi."


Now why did I post this delicious page by Queneau? Well, two main reasons:
1. I love Raymond Queneau.
2. I find this page a wonderful exemple of the surviving memory of a forgotten Language, in our Romance languages, and the very difficult transaltion by Umberto Eco, is a wonderful exemple of what I was speaking about: Two Romance Languages, and two different and similar kinds of the so called Macaronic Latin!
A joke by Queneau of course, as a joke by Eco is the Italian Translated Latin, but a wonderful joke that can tell us many things about the matter I was trying to highligth here, without great success I have to admit reading the post of pirro.

[pirro]

Spanish and italian are the closer languages to latin. french is very similar, but it was later more "germanized" than those other languages. The problem with pronuntation was that spanish "evolved" from a more classical latin with many, many additions during the golden age of the XVI century taken directly from Cicerón, César and such.
Italian, on the other hand, took the late pronuntation, the religious one. That's why some spanish "Cs" are "Ks" like in latin (we say Kartago for example) instead of the "Cs" sounds used by the italians.

I had to study these thing in my degree on classical languages... I wish I finished it

Also, only we spaniards can pronounce the greek Xi and breathings correctly

[PSEUDO ROMANUS]

Spanish and italian are the closer languages to latin. french is very similar, but it was later more "germanized" than those other languages.

If by 'closer' you mean more similar in terms of their sounds, I agree.

The problem with pronuntation was that spanish "evolved" from a more classical latin with many, many additions during the golden age of the XVI century taken directly from Cicerón, César and such.

Well, the Latin of Hispania must have been - if not the most- at least one of the most conservative variations of that language in the Roman world.

Italian, on the other hand, took the late pronuntation, the religious one.

Maybe the other way around. The religious establishment adopted the way of speech of the region it has chosen as its headquarters. And only because of geographical circumstances. If Rome had been located in Gaul or Hispania, Ecclesiastical Latin would have sounded with a French or Spanish accent. Therefore, it's not Italian that sounds like Church Latin, but Church Latin that sounds like Italian.

That's why some spanish "Cs" are "Ks" like in latin (we say Kartago for example) instead of the "Cs" sounds used by the italians

That's true. In our language, 'C' before back vowels sounds like 'K'. However, it does not occur exclusively in Spanish, as the same happens in other Romance languages (Italian among them, where Cartagine is pronounced with a 'k' sound at the beginnig of the word) .

[pirro]

If by 'closer' you mean more similar in terms of their sounds, I agree.


Well, the Latin of Hispania must have been - if not the most- at least one of the most conservative variations of that language in the Roman world.


Maybe the other way around. The religious establishment adopted the way of speech of the region it has chosen as its headquarters. And only because of geographical circumstances. If Rome had been located in Gaul or Hispania, Ecclesiastical Latin would have sounded with a French or Spanish accent. Therefore, it's not Italian that sounds like Church Latin, but Church Latin that sounds like Italian.


That's true. In our language, 'C' before back vowels sounds like 'K'. However, it does not occur exclusively in Spanish, as the same happens in other Romance languages (Italian among them, where Cartagine is pronounced with a 'k' sound at the beginnig of the word) .

By closer I meant that both vocabulary and pronuntation are very similar to latin. French's pronuntation is very, very germanic.

And hispanic latin was separated from the "romania" way earlier than the gaul or italy, and the byzantine influence was very light, that's why it took a very conservative latin to evolve from. But still, we have some changes that are exclusive to spanish (not even portuguese or catalan does have them) such as the bm-br change (hominem - hombre) and the drop of the whole accusative ending (-um-am-em) ,which I think, only happens in spanish.

And the only differences between spanish and classical latin pronuntation are the "v" (our is fricative, although nobody really makes nowdays the difference between v and b) and the "z" (or "s" like in my dialect) pronuntation of some "Cs"

[Diocle]

Dear friends, if you are interested in the various italian sounds of 'C', the best way is alway the same: Petrarca!

Look this wonderful verse, almost onomatopoeic if correctly pronounced :

"...Chiare, fresche, dolci acque...."

You have:

'Chi-' of 'chiare' that must be pronounced: 'Kiare'
'-che' of 'fresche' that must be pronounced: 'Freske'
The true National flag: The sweet sound of 'c' in 'dolci', the sound should be something like the 'ch' in 'chewin-gum'
and the complex sound of '-cque' in 'acque', this should sound like a duoble hard sound of 'c' with the second more deep, not easy to explain....something like a short 'K' before the 'q'......not easy.

Try, and you'll listen the sound of water......

[pirro]

Spanish is much easier. Ch is pronounced like the "c" in dolci, "c" if it is before and a,o,u it's a "k" and if it is before an e,i, then it is a "z" like th in thought

[Diocle]

Do you know pirro that I'm not able to find on the web the text of the 'Cid'? I would like to give a look but here in Italy I find, and it's not easy, only a translated version, but I was interested in the Spanish text...strange, really strange....on Internet there is almost all....

[pirro]

I got my copy of the Cid for 3 euros here in Spain... It is a cheap book, so if someday you come to Spain, you should buy it
But I'm sure it is in the "biblioteca nacional en línea". Or in the "biblioteca cervantes". You shouldn't have troubles understanding spanish, but if you can't find it there, I can take a look
EDIT: Well, I'm bored, here I found it in a very, very good crytical analysis by Menendez Pidal
http://bib.cervantesvirtual.com/serv...2279/index.htm

[Diocle]

You can be bored but I must tell you: thank you pirro! +rep!!!!!

[Diocle]

Again a link, this time for writers or AARs creators, yes of course I'm referring to SBH and Knon Optimi Maximi!

These are Late Latin Names, with a brief history and some information where possible about their origins, take a look I'm having a lot of fun (or would be better:'I'm enjoying it a lot?' anyway you have understood the idea!) :

Site: Behind Late Roman Names:http://www.behindthename.com/names/usage/late-roman

This link contains a huge amount of Roman names but less specific for Late Antiquity:
http://www.20000-names.com/male_latin_names.htm

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

Lol - I have had that site bookmarked for a couple of years now! Very useful . . .

[Diocle]

I've found a way to explain the sound of 'ae' to the English speaking community here, listen this extraodinary chant and read the text .. (well, whatever you think it's a classic!)
....yes! finally I'm able to show you in which way it 'must' be pronounced the diphthong 'oe' in 'coeli' and the diphthong 'ae' in 'saecula' (Aetius!) .. Mwahahahahahah!
You have even the occasion to listen the 'correct' sweet sounds of the 'c' ('procedit') and 'g' ('unigenitum')followed by the vowels 'i' and 'e' .... (OK! OK! Pseudo, .... I shut up! sorry! )

'Credo in Unum Deo':



About the so called 'Catholic pronouciation' of the Latin,..... it's a complex matter I know but, may I try a little experiment?

This is the famous and beautiful 'Veni Creator Spiritus' in 'Italian Latin' by the SCHOLA GREGORIANA MEDIOLANENSIS of St Ambrose in Milan:



This is the same 'Venit Cretor Spiritus' in Notre Dame in Paris, 'French Latin' sounds for the Latin text:



...... aaaaaaaaaaand this one is absolutely 'British Latin'! 'Venit Creator Spiritus' on the occasion of the enthronement of the Archbishop of Canterbury:



At this point probably you all have understood that even in the so called 'Catholic Latin' the differences are many and very interesting ..... The Latin is still the same as should be its pronounciation, the so called 'Catholic pronounciation' , but the sounds are pretty different, even the so called 'Catholic' Latin is highly influenced by the National Languages.

Finally, this one is the 'Pronunciation' of 'Venit Creator Spiritus' for an English speaking audience:




good listening brothers!
Amen!

[PSEUDO ROMANUS]

Historical linguistics aside, thank you for the vids, Diocle. I've enjoyed listening to those Ecclessiastical Latin samples. Although, to be honest, I don't like the music. I may be touching some people's musical sensibilities (if so, I apologize), but I have never been fond of that Gregorian style. I know many people like it, but I'm not one of them.