Latin Language during and after the Late Antiquity. Originally: Pronounciation of Aetius

[Renatus]

I give up. Life's too short for this sort of nonsense.

[Diocle]

I give up. Life's too short for this sort of nonsense.

Sad news indeed, in any case, thanks for having expressed here your interesting (though wrong) personal thoughts about Latin pronunciation, Renatus.

About nonsense, I think the only nonsense in this case it's presenting a hypothetical reconstruction of the historical reality of the Latin language, i.e. a historic pastiche called with a certain amount of ingenuity and a high degree of bad taste, "Lingua Latina Restituta", as some form of scientific truth; so, I agree with you: life is too short for this sort of nonsense.

*****

Well, now we can go on from the point from which we had left: Ensamble Micrologus

Medieval Latin and Romance sounds: "Libre Vermell: Los Sept Goytxs" ' good listening.

"VOI CH'AMATE DI VERO AMORE"
Canti di crociata e di pellegrinaggio nell'Europa medievale (XII-XIV sec.)
PATRIZIA BOVI - canto, arpa, buccina
GOFFREDO DEGLI ESPOSTI - cornamusa, flauto traverso, flauto & tamburo, flauto doppio
GABRIELE RUSSO - viella, ribeca, buccina
ENEA SORINI - canto, salterio, campane, tamburello, naccharoni
SIMONE SORINI - canto, liuto, guinterna
PEPPE FRANA - liuto, guinterna

[Renatus]

Diocle, I did not intend to say any more in this thread but then thought, on reflection, that I should offer you and, more particularly, any other member who might be interested the explanation as to why I have pulled out of this discussion.

First, there is this:

At this point I humbly suggest you a vist to a good otolaryngologist, I know they are pretty expencive, but they can solve your problems, today in fact the electronic tools that can solve your issue are really unbelievable in quality and for the most absolute invisibility!

I put forward what seems to me to be a possible reason why sounds perfectly audible to a non-Italian may be inaudible to you and your response is to insult me. This is intolerable.

Secondly, I pick up on a suggestion made by you that might allow others to provide some input into our dispute and I get this:

RAT? What's RAT? Ah yeah! Do ... you mean this one?



No, sorry but, I don't think rats can help in pronunciation of ancient languages, they are with us from the beginning and sadly they'll be with us till the end, but for sure .. they do not know Latin!

RAT is the widely-used acronym for the forum Roman Army Talk. You should know this, having joined that forum in 2011 and made 168 posts to it. However, when the debate descends to this level of imbecility, there is simply no point in continuing with it. This is the point at which I switched off and did not bother to read further. Perhaps you will now understand what I mean when I speak of 'nonsense'.

The result of your conduct is this: although I have in the past quite enjoyed some of our discussions in other threads, I have now lost all patience with you and to not want to have any further conversations with you on this or any other subject. Goodbye.

[Diocle]

- About "rat": Sorry but I didn't understand the word "rat". My limited knowledge of English language, pushed me to wrongly associate with the English word "RAT" the most common meaning of the word "RAT" in English, sorry again.

- About the "A" sounds, you have repeated many times that I didn't hear the "A" sound that you could hear in the video, so, you was telling me that my listening capabilities are in some way preventing me to listen if an Italian adds a vowel to a word (for some unclear reason), and this is like saying that my hearing capabilities are compromised, not working or limited by some genetic characteristic preventing Italian people to hear the vowel sounds that they add everywhere. So, for an elementary form of reciprocity, I replied that my hearing abilities are good, instead I must suppose that possibly your hearing abilities are in some way limited, this is not an insult of course, it's just a symmetric answer to your argument about my listening abilities.

Nobody here wanted or wants to insult you or anyone else, nor it's my intention insulting any Forum on the Internet sharing the name with a small delicious animal named "rat".

The end of your post saddens me a lot, but .. how can I influence your decisions? And would it be right for me trying to influence your decisions? I don't think.
So, farewell Renatus, have a nice day and a wonderful life, be happy, you and your beloved ones, as said the Romans ..

VALE ATQUE VALE.

[Renatus]

Well, at least we part on reasonably good terms. Time is a great healer and I may relent at some point in the future. We shall have to see.

[Diocle]

Well, at least we part on reasonably good terms. Time is a great healer and I may relent at some point in the future. We shall have to see.

"So, may we cultivate the hope to have you back here sooner or later, Renatus? Great news indeed!"

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

' ... said Father Carlo, and then, thrown away the letter, he crossed the courtyard of the Ducal Palace at a fast pace, indeed, as if all the demons of hell were chasing him and in the red evening light, he looked like a gloomy dark shadow, black as the blackest crows; he went through the secret door reserved to the Soldiers of Christ, and then, entered into the Church of Jesus, from the small gate of the Order, he fell on his knees just under the wonderful painting of the "Assumption of the Holy Virgin Mary", painted by Guido Reni, and after a long time in which not even the smallest movement animated the dark mass of his body ..



.. he raised his head, whispering through the tears streaming down his wrinkled cheeks:

- "Mater Dolorosa, tell me please what I did wrong! Virgo Castissima, in what have I offended You? Rosa Mistica, why have You decided to punish me in this way? Virgo Purissima tell me please in which way I have offended Your Majesty! Madre Misericordiosa, why this? Mother, Blessed Among Women, have mercy on me, please! Stella Splendens, punish me, but at least tell me which was my sin deserving this terrible punishment! Mater Sanctissima ...".



The assassin was looking at the scene almost mesmerized from the darkness of the nearby Spinola chapel, he did not dare to move a step or to make a single small gesture, he knew in fact that when Father Carlo was in such a state of frustration and anger, not even his legendary skill with Rapier and Misericordia could save him from the fury of the old Jesuit .. '

From the novel "The Jesuit's Shadow", by Jean Paul Blantar, Paris 1827, "Péres de Fer- Editeurs", rue Cardinal Lemoine 74.

*****


Now returning to the point I was trying to make, that is, my personal Autumnal omage to Latin and to Romance languages:

TROUBADOURS, Troubadores Occitanos, Clemencic Consort.

Songs of Occitan Troubadours of XII and XIII centuries by Clemencic Consort.



Anonyme, fin 12e siècle
01 - A l'entrada del temps clar [2:52]
voix mixtes, vièle, chitarra saracenica, tintinnabulum, tambour à grelots

PEIROL, 1180-c.1225
02 - Quant amors trobèt partit [3:26]
voix, tambour

Peire VIDAL, c.1175-1204
03 - Vida et Razos [8:09]
récitant, flûte de berger, galoubet, cornemuse, tambour, tambourin, crotales

Raimbaut de VAQUEIRAS, c.1155-1207
04 - Vida [7:04]
récitant, vièle, rubebe
05 - Calenda maia [5:05]
chant, vièle, rubebe, bûche, tambour-calice

La Comtessa de DIA, c.1160
06 - Vida [0:23]
récitant
07 - A Chantar [14:36]
soprano, vièle, tympanon, rubebe, tambour

Bernart de VENTADORN, c.1125 - ?
08 - Vida [2:40]
récitant, flûte de berger
09 - Can l'erba [6:14]
soprano, vielle à roue, flûte à bec, tambour à grelots

Guilhem de CABESTANH
10 - Vida [5:24]
récitant, luth

MARCABRUN, c.1150
11 - Vida [1:10]
récitant, luth
12 - L'autrier jost'una sebisa [4:52]
ténor, sifflet, luth, tambour, tambour à grelots, crotales

Anonyme, c.1200
13 - Novel amor [12:07]
luth, flûte à bec, vièle, cornet à bouquin, tympanon, tambour-calice

Raimon de MIRAVAL, c.1135-c.1216
14 - Selh que non vol [3:10]
vielle à roue

CLEMENCIC CONSORT
René Clemencic
Pilar Figueras, soprano
René Zosso, chant et vièle à roue
René Clemencic, flûtes à bec, flûtes de berger, galoubet, sifflet, orgue portatif
Michael Dittrich, vièles
Andrtis Kecskès, luth, rubebe, chitarra saracenica
Frantisek Pok, cornemuse, cornet à bouquin, tambour à grelots, crotales
Esmail Vasseghi, tympanon, tambour-calice, tambour, tambour à grelots

[Diocle]

The recent discussion about vowels, Italian and Late latin language, has reminded me an old duty I had in mind for years but which for the inherent lazyness, connatural to my nature, I never faced seriously here, its name is: PEREGRINATIO AETHERIAE, and it's a V century text, describing the travel, or better, the pilgrimage of a Roman woman of Spanish birth to the Holy Land. Apart the obviously interesting historical details of the travel, the main interest of the document is related to the language used by Aetheria, in fact it's a colloquial Latin, that is, a spoken Latin of the V century, which can be seen as an extremely interesting example of that mysterious "Vulgar Latin" whose existence we can just conjecture, as the missing link between Latin and National Vulgar Languages.

So, firstly a brief note about the work from the Italian Wiki page, because actually there is not an English Wiki page concerning The Peregrinatio, so don't complain about the English, it's mine! Then I'll add the Late Latin text and possibly the translation of the beginning of the work, and if I'll find the will and the time (and if you are interested) I'll go on with the full text.

Peregrinatio Aetheriae.

The Peregrinatio Aetheriae ( "Pilgrimage of Etheria"), also known as Itinerarium Egeriae ( "Egeria's Itinerary"), is a Latin text of the beginning of the fifth century, in which Egeria, or Etheria, describes his pilgrimage to the Holy Land.
The central part of the original text, about a third, without beginning and end, was found in 1884 by the scholar Gian Francesco Gamurrini in a manuscript of the eleventh century, it wrote in the Abbey of Montecassino and found in Arezzo, which was published for the first time in 1887 by the same Gamurrini.
In the seventh century a monk named Valerio, in turn wrote a letter in which he praised the author, providing more information on her and on her itinerary. Other subsequent texts cite other parts of the text lost in the manuscript of Arezzo, but cited by Valerio.
The author's name is uncertain, depending on the version of the text (Aetheria, or Egeria), but Valerio reports that it was a nun, who had written the diary of his pilgrimage in a long letter to her sisters (in text, called "sisters").
However the freedom connected to an absence so prolonged (about four years) and the considerable cost of the trip seem to contradict that identification and the name of "sisters" and "brothers", was frequently used at the time of the writing of the diary, even outside the monastic community: the word probably has misled Valerio himself. Egeria-Eteria was therefore more likely a wealthy woman of the middle class, probably native to the Atlantic coast of Spain or Gaul.
The pilgrimage of Egeria took place surely, on the basis of references in the text to other events, between the 363 and 540, but the most commonly accepted date is 381-384. The preserved part of the text describes the end of his stay in Jerusalem, where he had lived for three years. The text was probably written after the end of the trip, on the basis of notes taken previously and some descriptions appear to have been written after his return to Constantinople.
Egeria was to be a woman of a certain culture, and she is interested by the places and customs, and their differences from its place of origin, and not only by the edifying episodes; She greeted with a certain critical spirit, the news that were reported by his guides. She is, however, fully Christian and describes only buildings, situations and Christian characters, without any reference to pagans. She puts a special attention to the liturgy and is of great interest to scholars the description of the Holy Week liturgy used at that time in Jerusalem.
She writes in a colloquial Latin probably, far from the classic and it seems that his main reference was the Bible, the style of which we capture the echoes in places.
From the point of view of language the text is a testimony of the evolution of Latin: for example, expressions like "deductores sancti illi" ( "those holy guides", with the meaning of "holy guides") help to shed light on the origin of the definite article in Romance languages.

" (Multa desunt)
1. ... Interea ambulantes peruenimus ad quendam locum, ubi se tamen montes illi, inter quos ibamus, aperiebant et faciebant uallem infinitam ingens, planissimain et ualde pulchrarn et trans uallem apparebat mons sanctus Dei Syna. Hic autem locus, ubi se montes aperiebant, iunctus est cum eo loco, quo sunt memoriae concupiscentiae. In eo ergo loco cum uenitur, ut tamen commonuerunt deductores sancti illi, qui nobiscum erant, dicentes: consuetudo est, ut fiat hic oratio ab his qui ueniunt, quando de eo loco primitus uidetur mons Dei: sicut et nos fecimus. Habebat autem de eo loco ad montem Dei forsitan quattuor milia totum per ualle illa, quam dixi ingens.


2. Vallis autem ipsa ingens est ualde, iacens subter latus montis Dei, quae habet forsitan, quantum potuimus uidentes aestimare aut ipsi dicebant, in longo milia passos forsitan sedecim, in lato autem quattuor milia esse appellabant. Ipsam ergo uallem nos trauersare habebamus, ut possimus montem ingredi. Haec est autem uallis ingens et planissirna in qua filii Israhel commorati sunt his diebus, quod sanctus Moyses ascendit in montem Domini, et fuit ibi quadraginta diebus et quadraginta noctibus. Haec est autem uallis, in qua factus est uitulus, qui locus usque in hodie ostenditur; nam lapis grandis ibi fixus stat in ipso loco. Haec ergo uallis ipsa est, in cuius capite ille locus est, ubi sanctus Moyses cum pasceret pecora soceri sui, iterum locutus est ei Deus de rubo in igne. Et quoniam nobis ita erat iter, ut prius montem Dei ascenderemus, qui hinc paret, [quia] unde ueniebamus, melior ascensus erat, et illinc denuo ad illud caput uallis descenderemus, id est ubi rubus erat, quia melior des-census montis Dei erat inde: itaque ergo hoc placuit, ut uisis omnibus quae desiderabamus, descendentes a monte Dei, ubi est rubus, ueniremus, et inde totum per mediam uallem ipsam, qua iacet in longo, rediremus ad iter cum hominibus Dei, qui nobis singula loca, quae scripta sunt, per ipsam uiallem ostendebant, sicut et factum est. Nobis ergo euntibus ad eo ioco, ubi uenientes a Faran feceramus orationem, iter sic fuit, ul per medium transuersaremus caput ipsius uallis, et sic plecaremus nos ad montetn Dei. Mons autem ipse per giro quidem unus esse uidetur; intus autem quod ingrederis, plures sunt, sed totum mons Dei appellatur; specialis autem ille, in cuius summitate est hic locus, ubi descendit maiestas Dei, sicut scriptum est, in medio illorum omnium est. Et cum hi omnes, qui per girum sunt, tarn excelsi sint, quam nunquam me puto uidisse, tamen ipse ille medianus, in quo descendit maiestas Dei, tanto altior est omnibus illis, ut cum subissemus in illo, prorsus toti illi montes, quos exceisos uideramus, ita infra nos essent, ac si colliculi permodici essent. Illud sane satis admirabile est et sine Dei gratia puto illud non esse, ut cum omnibus altior sit ille medianus, qui specialis Syna dicitur, id est in quo descendit maiestas Domini, tamen uideri non possit, nisi ad propriam radicem illius ueneris, ante tamen quam eum subeas; nam posteaquam completo desiderio descenderis inde, et de contra illum uides; quod antequam subeas, facere non potes. Hoc autem, antequam perueniremus ad montem Dei, iam referentibus fratribus cognoueram, et postquam ibi perueni, ita esse .manifeste cognoui. "


" In the meanwhile we came on foot to a certain place where the mountains, through which we were journeying, opened out and formed an infinitely great valley, quite flat and extraordinarily beautiful, and across the valley appeared Sinai, the holy mountain of God. And this place, where the mountains opened out, lies next to the place where are the graves of lust.1 Now on reaching that spot, the holy guides who were with us told us, saying: "The custom is that prayer should be made by those who arrive here, when from this place the mount of God is first seen." And this we did. The whole distance from that place to the mount of God was about four miles across the aforesaid great valley.


For that valley is indeed very great, lying under the slope of the mount of God, and measuring, as far as we could judge by our sight, or as they told us, about sixteen miles in length, but they called its breadth four miles. We had, therefore, to cross that valley in order to reach the mountain. Now this is the great and flat valley wherein the children of Israel waited during those days when holy Moses went up into the mount of the Lord and remained there forty days and forty nights.1 This moreover is the valley in which that calf was made,2 and the spot is shown to this day, for a great stone stands fixed there on the very site. This also is the same valley at the head of which is the place where, while holy Moses was feeding his father-in-law's flocks, God spake to him twice out of the burning bush.3 And as our route was first to ascend the mount of God, which is in sight hereã[because] the ascent was easier by the way we were comingãand then to descend to the head of the valley where the bush was, that being the easier descent, so we determined, having first seen all that we desired, to descend from the mount of God so as to arrive at the place of the bush, and thence to return on our journey throughout the whole length of the valley, together with the men of God, who there showed us each place which is mentioned in the Scriptures. And so it was done. Thus, going from that spot where we had prayed when we arrived from Faran,4 our route was to cross the middle of the head of that valley, and so turn to the mount of God.
Now the whole mountain group looks as if it were a single peak, but, as you enter the group, [you see that] there are more than one; the whole group however is called the mount of God. But that special peak which is crowned by the place where, as it is written, the Glory of God descended, is in the centre of them all.1 And though all the peaks in the group attain such a height as I think I never saw before, yet the central one, on which the Glory of God came down, is so much higher than them all, that when we had ascended it, all those mountains which we had thought to be high, were so much beneath us as if they were quite little hills. This is certainly very wonderful, and not, I think, without the favour of God, that while the central height, which is specially called Sinai, on which the Glory of the Lord descended, is higher than all the rest, yet it cannot be seen until you reach its very foot, though before you go up it. But after that you have fulfilled your desire and descend, you can see it from the other side, which you cannot do before you begin to ascend. This I had learned from information given by the brethren before we had arrived at the mount of God, and after I arrived I saw that it was manifestly so. "





Notes by Zdravko Batzarov:

Deductores sancti illi: in function of a definite article.
Habebat: impersonal usage.
Traversare habebamus: A Romance construction, cf. It. avere da fare, instead of CL nobis traversandum erat; traversare means to cross. =>
Quod: temporal meanning.
Diebus, noctibus: ablative and accusative are used alternately in Vulgar Latin to express duration.
Et... nobis ita erat iter: the attributive usage of the adverbs is proper to Vulgar Latin.
Paret: is visible.
Ipse: in function of a definite article.
Plecaremus: instead of plicaremus, from plicare to approach (this meaning is used in Vulgar Latin).
Per giro: neighborhood, vicinity.
Medianus = CL. medius.
Toti = omnes.
Parvus: replaced in the text by modicus.
Satis: very.






Links: Peregrinatio Aetheriae, here and English translation.

[PSEUDO ROMANUS]

Hello, everybody. Long time, no see (or more accurately, no read )

Now a curiosity that has almost killed me!
It seems infact that Spanish language is not an evolution of the Latin, so, in strict terms, Spanish it's not a Romance language!

At least this is what she thinks a serious Spanish professor Carmen J. Huertas, who has studied and teaches Latin: "We don't descend from Latin", she says!

NO VENIMOS DEL LATIN!

My opinion? The mania of innovating, that nowadays has become a true psychotic 'Compulsion to Repeat', is killing the Western Civilization much more than he did Attila the Hun with the Western Roman Empire!

I had never seen this vid before. Thanks Diocle, for sharing it. You may find it interesting though, that she states that not only Spanish is not an offspring of Latin but neither is any other Romance Language (including Italian). I know how passionate you are on this topic, so my advice for you is breath nice and slowly, and keep it cool. I don't want you to have a massive stroke

[Diocle]

I had never seen this vid before. Thanks Diocle, for sharing it. You may find it interesting though, that she states that not only Spanish is not an offspring of Latin but neither is any other Romance Language (including Italian). I know how passionate you are on this topic, so my advice for you is breath nice and slowly, and keep it cool. I don't want you to have a massive stroke

Glad to see you back here clarissimus!

About the vid: I've discovered the video the last summer, when I was at Coninbriga, a wonderful Roman and late Roman site in Portugal, so, bathing in the magic waters of time it made me immune (exactly like Sigfried and the dragoon's blood) to any heart attack, in this way I was able to come back in Coimbra alive and then listening and posting the video here, having survived to its poisoning contents and harmful effects on my health. Thanks for your interest, my most beloved amicus!

I do hope we'll see you more frequently in the next months, now that Attila is out and there are new mods in the making for the old and glorious RTW-BI and new mods already out (Imperial Crisis), your presence would be a great gift for this community.

To celebrate: Jordi Savall, "El Cant de La Sibilla"
(IMO highly suggested for IBFD Mods, especially for late period (V century), ok it's not warlike music but .. it's so atmospheric, mesmerizing and enchanting!)

[First Citizen Gallienus]

Pseudo Romanus back from his slumber I see.

[PSEUDO ROMANUS]

Pseudo Romanus back from his slumber I see.

Glad to see you back here clarissimus!


I do hope we'll see you more frequently in the next months, now that Attila is out and there are new mods in the making for the old and glorious RTW-BI and new mods already out (Imperial Crisis), your presence would be a great gift for this community.

Thank you, you're very kind. I'll do my best. I promise.
On the exchange you guys, Diocle and Renatus, engaged in about an extra vowel sound at the end of that recording, if I may I'd like to say something that might help. Let me tell you two stories. The first: about three days ago I met with two friends for dinner (we ate Chinese ). One of them is Al who is a native English speaker and whose command of Spanish happens to be really good; the other one was Fernando who is a native Spanish speaker who doesn't speak English. This was part of their conversation, the part that is relevant to this anecdote:
Fernando: how do you say mundo in English? (I'm translating this of course)
Al: world.
Fernando: worl?
Al: no worl. wor-l-d
Fernando: worlda?
Me and Al: no worlda. wor-l-d
Fernando: That's what I'm saying: wor-l-da
We changed the subject

The second story:
Last week I was talking with a friend who doesn't speak Spanish:
Stephanie: How do you say wall in Spanish?
Me: pared (something like pah - red for those who are not familiar with Spanish)
Stephanie: pare? (I suppose I uttered a very soft d)
Me: not pare, but pare-d
Stephanie: pareduh?

That's when it hit me: it is really difficult to utter a dental or stop consonant like d, t, g, even n when trying to stress such phones, without elongating their sound by subconsciously resorting to a vocalic sound like a very short and closed a or uh.
The trick here is that the person familiar with the language and word used won't notice that addition because in their mind there is none. While the other person will catch every single sound because well... it is the one doing the listening.
That's why Al didn't notice the extra sound that Fernando perceived as an extra "a". Because Al (and me, later) knows there is no such a word as worlda, but world he was unaware of the unintentional elongation by means of a ghost vocalic sound he added to the word. The same thing happened with Stephanie and I.
So, in the recording the professor doesn't intend to add any extra vowel to those words. The phonic elongation perceived is unintentional, and is caused by his stressing those freaking hard-pronouncing dental and stop consonants. You'll see gentlemen, you (Diocle and Renatus) were both right and wrong at the same time.

[Diocle]

Yes nice examples, thanks my beloved friend!

.. but, .. but, .. but all in all, let me say that now the question is:do you think PR, that the Romans of the time of Cicero, if they could listen the recording of the italian professor, would they listen any vowel at the end of the consonantic sounds of the text read by the prof?






Edit: Wait please: they have problems also with Americans ...



So, if you consider they both speak English and for Americans the Brits pronouce "America-R" instead of "America", adding extra "R" sound (I do not hear it, but if Americans do .. I shut up!) to the end of the words .. well, then I see that actually there is some problem with the very complex British phonetics:

.. all in all, if they do this to their language, as says Mr. Lindeybeige:

" I'm sorry that I was late, but I was caught in traffic " => " 'Sorry z late z caught n traffic "

.. we can't ask too much in terms of Latin phonology.

Anyway, we should ask ourselves if the English speakers actually use a Germanic language or a Romance language, this great guy on youtube tries to give us a short (but well informed) answer:



How much I love comparative linguistics!

[PSEUDO ROMANUS]

.. but, .. but, .. but all in all, let me say that now the question is:do you think PR, that the Romans of the time of Cicero, if they could listen the recording of the italian professor, would they listen any vowel at the end of the consonantic sounds of the text read by the prof?

Well, I guess the answer depends on whether those Romans were aware of those phonetic phenomena or not. If they were I'd guess the answer would be yes; otherwise, no. But who knows. The answer belongs to the realm of mere speculation.

[Diocle]

For those few interested, this is the link to the "GLOSSARIUM MEDIAE ET INFIMAE LATINITATIS", the Dictionary of Medium and Late Latin by Charles du Fresne, sieur du Cange (December 18, 1610 in Amiens – October 23, 1688 in Paris)




http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/camenaref/ducange.html

Here the link of Glossarium on Documenta Catholica Omnia:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.e...u_Cange_C.html

Here the Sorbonne site of the Glossarium, obviously in French:

http://ducange.enc.sorbonne.fr/

Instead here you can find the PDF version of Glossarium, by Stanford University, Text Digitization Project:

http://standish.stanford.edu/bin/sea...209&sort=title

Wikipage

.

Charles du Fresne, sieur du Cange or Du Cange (December 18, 1610 in Amiens – October 23, 1688 in Paris) was a distinguished philologist and historian of the Middle Ages and Byzantium.
Educated by Jesuits, du Cange studied law and practiced for several years before assuming the office of Treasurer of France. Du Cange was a busy, energetic man who pursued historical scholarship alongside his demanding official duties and his role as head of a large family.

Du Cange's most important work is his Glossarium mediae et infimae Latinitatis (Glossary of medieval and late Latin, Paris, 1678). This work, together with a glossary of medieval and late Greek that he published ten years later, has gone through numerous editions and revisions and is still consulted frequently by scholars today. Du Cange's pioneering work distinguished medieval Latin and Greek from their earlier classical forms, marking the beginning of the study of the historical development of languages.
.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



After Du Cange's Vocabulary, let me post another very interesting and precious source this time about Italian Vulgar, it's the online Etymological Dictionary of Italian Language of the Origins:

" TLIO, Tesoro della lingua Italiana delle Origini. " (Treasure of the Italian Language of Origins)

On the page we can read:

.
It is published here in the course of drafting the Treasury of the Italian Language of Origins (TLIO), first chronological section of the historic Italian vocabulary. A selection of the same items is printed in the Bulletin of the OVI; the online version can be updated with respect to the printed version.

New items are added every four years. In July 2016 TLIO has nearly 32,400 published entries out of an estimated total of 57,000 (about 57%).
.

Here an example, I was searching for "Balestra", the Italian Vulgar for the Latin and Late Latin "Ballista":

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As you can see, the Etymology and historical analysis of the word is really exhaustive: "Balestra" has been firstly registered on the "Libro" written by Uguccione da Lodi or Uguçon da Laodho in XIII century in its meaning of "Weapon formed by a bow attached to a frame and a rope that you can pull to hurl arrows and other projectiles". For each word you have the chance of exploring: Forms' List, Etimologic Note, First Attribution, Geo-Linguistic Distribution, List of Definitions and Linguistic Notes, you can also verify who is/are the authors of the page/notes. Fantastic source!

[Montefortino]

Very very very interesting topic!
I've been interested for many years in knowing what were the right pronounciation of the Romans during classic period (I sec B.C. - I sec A.D).

I think Diocle is right about the pronunciation of soft C and G before 'i' and 'e' as general rule, not only during medieval period but also during classic period and maybe before.
But i think there were the exceptions too, like in all languages in the world after all: for instance the latin word ETRUSCI, in italian ETRUSCHI (we have add an 'H' letter to rendering the hard sound of C); according to the scolastic/ecclesiastical pronunciation ETRUSCI would have been with the soft C (like in english 'chest'). I don't know if latin people pronounced ETRUSKI (hard sound) or ETRUSCI with soft C, but the comparison to italian word ETRUSCHI tends me to think that the ancient sound were with hard C.

CICERO and CAESAR pronunced with sweet, soft C

There is an interisting paper, dating back to 1879, that defends the 'italian' way to pronounce classical latin: you can read it at https://www.jstor.org/stable/2510071...n_tab_contents

Valete!

[Diocle]

Very very very interesting topic!
I've been interested for many years in knowing what were the right pronounciation of the Romans during classic period (I sec B.C. - I sec A.D).

I think Diocle is right about the pronunciation of soft C and G before 'i' and 'e' as general rule, not only during medieval period but also during classic period and maybe before.
But i think there were the exceptions too, like in all languages in the world after all: for instance the latin word ETRUSCI, in italian ETRUSCHI (we have add an 'H' letter to rendering the hard sound of C); according to the scolastic/ecclesiastical pronunciation ETRUSCI would have been with the soft C (like in english 'chest'). I don't know if latin people pronounced ETRUSKI (hard sound) or ETRUSCI with soft C, but the comparison to italian word ETRUSCHI tends me to think that the ancient sound were with hard C.

CICERO and CAESAR pronunced with sweet, soft C

There is an interisting paper, dating back to 1879, that defends the 'italian' way to pronounce classical latin: you can read it at https://www.jstor.org/stable/2510071...n_tab_contents

Valete!

Welcome on this thread Montefortino and welcome on TWC! This in fact looks like your first post and let me say that it's already a small gem! Thank you very much! Grazie!

Thank you very much also for the link, it's very interesting, the author at the beginning of the paper writes:

".. Each nation has assumed the right to pronounce Latin according to the rules and intonations of its own language. This however is preposterous as if we were to insist on pronouncing French or Italian as if it were English. In Germany, Latin becomes German; in France French; in England, English. Of all these, certainly the worst and the less defensible, at least so far as the vowels are concerned, is the English pronunciation; and probably the worst, so far as the consonants are concerned, is the German."

More or less it's what I've learnt at the beginning of my Latin studies and it's of great comfort for me find it again here. Thanks!

I hope to see you later on these screens, your beginning has been simply AWESOME!

[Diocle]

A small tribute, in this incredibly warm summer, to the ancient and glorious engine of Rome Total War, just to remind one of the (infinite) reasons for which it was far superior to Rome 2:

[The Good]

Perhaps someone here is knowledgeable about this aspect of pronunciation, but do we know exactly or around when the letter C moved on from the hard K sound, to the Ch sound in Medieval Latin? I suppose it would have been any time between the 7th-10th centuries, depending also on regional context (Latin spoken in France or Spain VS. Italy)? For pronouncing Flavius Aetius, if I am not making an attempt to pronounce it as in Classical Latin, I would either say Flaw-vee-us Eh-shus, or Etius to be similar to the Italian name Ezio, but for a pronunciation in tune with Latin, I'm inclined to think it would have been Flawioos (no V sound) Ah-ette-ioos, corresponding to the Greek pronunciation of Aetos, due to this eastern etymology of Aetius' name. It's very possible that Westerners in the Roman Empire would have rendered it Ae-tee-oos, if they had not been acquainted with the Greek-influenced pronunciation. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

[Diocle]

Perhaps someone here is knowledgeable about this aspect of pronunciation, but do we know exactly or around when the letter C moved on from the hard K sound, to the Ch sound in Medieval Latin? I suppose it would have been any time between the 7th-10th centuries, depending also on regional context (Latin spoken in France or Spain VS. Italy)? For pronouncing Flavius Aetius, if I am not making an attempt to pronounce it as in Classical Latin, I would either say Flaw-vee-us Eh-shus, or Etius to be similar to the Italian name Ezio, but for a pronunciation in tune with Latin, I'm inclined to think it would have been Flawioos (no V sound) Ah-ette-ioos, corresponding to the Greek pronunciation of Aetos, due to this eastern etymology of Aetius' name. It's very possible that Westerners in the Roman Empire would have rendered it Ae-tee-oos, if they had not been acquainted with the Greek-influenced pronunciation. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

In my opinion the Romans used both sounds from the beginning till the end, otherwise can someone give me a (possibly good, or even very good!) reason to explain why the first Roman alphabets had both
"C" and "K" letters?



Many here would agree that two different letters correspond to two different sounds, the Italian language preserved the "K" letter, representing the hard sound of the "C", until modern age, the letter "K" was then abolished for political reasons linked to a deliberated semtiment of anti-Germanism.

Every man born (or maybe even lived enough) in Italy, would understand that NOBODY at these latitudes has EVER pronunced the word "dulcis" with the sound of "dulkis"!
Here nobody has ever said to his woman something like: "Giulia tu es dulkis!"

Thinking that the Romans pronunced the word "Cibus" as "Kibus" is so crazy, that it's hard for me trying to stay serious when I think to the indecent international comics known as "Pronuncia restituita"!

[PSEUDO ROMANUS]

Glad to see you back here clarissimus!

About the vid: I've discovered the video the last summer, when I was at Coninbriga, a wonderful Roman and late Roman site in Portugal, so, bathing in the magic waters of time it made me immune (exactly like Sigfried and the dragoon's blood) to any heart attack, in this way I was able to come back in Coimbra alive and then listening and posting the video here, having survived to its poisoning contents and harmful effects on my health. Thanks for your interest, my most beloved amicus!

I wanted to tell you that i read her book. A very interesting reading, I must say . As you know, she states that modern Romance languages don’t come out of Latin. She also gives a lot of solid evidence to support her theory. It would be a ground-breaking theory if it were unheard of, but it is not. Let me explain. What she calls Latin in her book is what is known as “classical Latin”, that highly artificial linguistic structure used by the elite for official speeches, which was almost unused in other spheres by the rest of native speakers (including the elite itself ) because of its own nature (unnecessarily complicated). At this point there is consensus on the theory that neo-Latin languages evolved from the vernacular variation of Latin and not the classical version (sort of an ancient Esperanto, I would say). So, when she says that Latin (meaning Classical Latin) didn’t give birth to Romance languages, she’s just repeating what it has already been said and accepted before. Nevertheless, I think she did a great job at collecting information and examples to support her view on the matter.

Perhaps someone here is knowledgeable about this aspect of pronunciation, but do we know exactly or around when the letter C moved on from the hard K sound, to the Ch sound in Medieval Latin? I suppose it would have been any time between the 7th-10th centuries, depending also on regional context (Latin spoken in France or Spain VS. Italy)? For pronouncing Flavius Aetius, if I am not making an attempt to pronounce it as in Classical Latin, I would either say Flaw-vee-us Eh-shus, or Etius to be similar to the Italian name Ezio, but for a pronunciation in tune with Latin, I'm inclined to think it would have been Flawioos (no V sound) Ah-ette-ioos, corresponding to the Greek pronunciation of Aetos, due to this eastern etymology of Aetius' name. It's very possible that Westerners in the Roman Empire would have rendered it Ae-tee-oos, if they had not been acquainted with the Greek-influenced pronunciation. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

Hi. I’d say your calculations are accurate based on current literature on the subject. I, however, agree with Diocle when he states that both sounds must have coexisted; just in the same way that the two pronunciations of the English words “schedule” and “herb” coexist on both sides of the Atlantic.