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  1. #1
    Kscott's Avatar New and Improved!
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    Default Understanding the Political Spectrum

    I have seen alot of people who often confuse what the left and the right are all about, so I am writing this in hope to clarify what the "left" and "right" are exactly. Hopefully this will clear up some confusion in our debates.

    The first thing we must do is understand exactly what Liberal and Conservative mean. Despite what dictionary definitions this words may have, as debators of politics we must only use the definitions that have been applied to them for the political spectrum. In simplicity the left wants change, the right wants to keep things as they are. Often these words are associated with certain values, however that is an error. Different cultures are at different places, so in each culture(and time) the definition of what a Liberal wants and what a conservative wants varies, however in all cases the above definition is what defines the conservative and the liberal.

    With the definitions clear it is vital to understand the sides arent dots on a plane, they are linear, meaning liberal and conservatives are simply groupings on a variety of beliefs. Lets start at the center and then work our way out to understand more precise definitions. At the center, commonly called the moderates we have people who want change and want to keep some things the same. The true middle is hard to define, however, we can group people in a certain range and label them moderates. After moderates we have what is commonly called Liberal on the left and conservative on the right. The more liberal the more change you want and the more right the less you want. However, when you get so far right the Conservatives do want change. This change is in an complete opposite direction of the Liberals. The far right wants to go back to how things used to be. The extreme right is called reactionaries and can often be confused for Liberals by those who don't properly understand the political spectrum. Conversly on the extreme left we have the radicals. These people want complete change and are willing to use force to do it. An example would be the French Revolution in which the radical revolutionaries brought about complete social upheavel and had no bone about using violence to achieve their ends. The far right and far left are truly mirror images of eachother and can be easliy mistaken. In practice they do much of the same things, yet their views are often in direct opposition of eachother(Or they could have the same views but come from different cultures in which the current and past satus were different.) These definitions are still limited so it is imperative to remember people fall somewhere along the line, not exclusivly to one group definition.

    There is one final obsticle to overcome here that many are confused by. People know the first two paragraphs and view the spectrum as linear. This is the traditional way of thinking, however it is flawed. It can be generally accepted that there are two political lines instead of one. The result is a coordinate plane in which can acount for anyones views. The two axis of this plane are the social and economic scales. One can be left/right on both or be left/right one and left/right on the other. This is a vast grid that people are scattered across. If you use this system it will be much easier to understand your and other's political views.

    Now that we have our definitions set straight we can examine our own culture(western here, sorry if you feel left out, I am simply talking from my own perspective). In the ecomic scale we have capitalist on the right and communism on the left. On the far right we have free market, far left complete control, and socialism somewhere in the middle. The social scale is much more complicated so I wont detail, however Conservatives want the traditional small government, traditional morals values, and the same can be aplied to all social issues. Liberals are obviously the opposite.

    Understanding all of this I only hope you can better understand where you lie on the political specturm.

    *feel free to comment, debate, or simply post where you are on the political spectrum.

    Patron of Basileous Leandros I/Grimsta/rez/ Aemilianus/Publius/ Vizigothe/Ahiga /Zhuge_Liang Under Patronage of Lord Rahl
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  2. #2
    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: Understanding the Political Spectrum

    so would Hitler be a extremist conservative or a radical liberal?
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  3. #3
    Kscott's Avatar New and Improved!
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    Default Re: Understanding the Political Spectrum

    Hilter was far right, Stalin was far left. They are often both seen in the same boat, but that is because as I said, the far-rigth and far-left are mirror images of eachother.

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    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: Understanding the Political Spectrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Kscott
    the far-rigth and far-left are mirror images of eachother.
    funny (and quite ironic) how that works out.

    so since you argue that the political spectrum is linear, you would disagree with the political compass idea
    house of Rububula, under the patronage of Nihil, patron of Hotspur, David Deas, Freddie, Askthepizzaguy and Ketchfoop
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Understanding the Political Spectrum

    One deminsional scales don't work for politics.
    Two dimensions is an improvement although three would be even better.





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    Kscott's Avatar New and Improved!
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    Default Re: Understanding the Political Spectrum

    which third line would you add?

    Patron of Basileous Leandros I/Grimsta/rez/ Aemilianus/Publius/ Vizigothe/Ahiga /Zhuge_Liang Under Patronage of Lord Rahl
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Understanding the Political Spectrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Kscott
    which third line would you add?
    Perhaps a morals line?
    "Tempus edax rerum." Ovid, Metamorphoses
    Under the patronage of Virgil.

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    trackjacket's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Understanding the Political Spectrum

    Quote Originally Posted by The White Knight
    Perhaps a morals line?
    Or maybe militancy?
    "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." – P.J. O'Rourke

  9. #9
    Evariste's Avatar We are one, we are many
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    Default Re: Understanding the Political Spectrum

    Ideally it would be a several-axis model, with every conceivable issue present, but that would be quite unwieldy.

  10. #10
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: Understanding the Political Spectrum

    I'd say some way of making it circular... other than racial affairs, Hitler and Stalin were extremely close in their policies in pretty much all areas!

  11. #11
    Evariste's Avatar We are one, we are many
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    Default Re: Understanding the Political Spectrum

    Right. Hardline Communism and Nazism are two sides of the same coin.

  12. #12
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: Understanding the Political Spectrum

    They're about a coin's width apart anyway!

  13. #13
    Kscott's Avatar New and Improved!
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    Default Re: Understanding the Political Spectrum

    hence mirror images of eachother..

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    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: Understanding the Political Spectrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Kscott
    hence mirror images of eachother..
    Mirror images implies reversal not absolute similarity.

  15. #15
    Kscott's Avatar New and Improved!
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    Default Re: Understanding the Political Spectrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Squeakus Maximus
    Mirror images implies reversal not absolute similarity.
    In a mirror your face looks exactly the same, but is reverse. That is how the far right and far left compare to eachother.

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  16. #16
    Evariste's Avatar We are one, we are many
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    Default Re: Understanding the Political Spectrum

    Also, one's a man's face in profile, and the other's an eagle, so I guess that they're a tad bit different.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Understanding the Political Spectrum

    Anyone here play Hearts of Iron 2?
    Great game, and they model politics well.
    They have three axes: democratic-authoritarian left-right closed society-open society
    An open society is one where freedom is put above order and security, whereas a closed society is the opposite.
    In this way, it could be said that Hitler and Stalin are the same on all but one axis, in which they're opposites.
    Would I be wrong to say Churchill and Roosevelt were also 2 for 3?
    Democratic, open society but one is left while the other is right.
    By that logic Roosevelt would be the opposite of Hitler and Churchill the opposite of Stalin.





  18. #18
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: Understanding the Political Spectrum

    Hitler and Stalin didn't have differences really on left and right, they didn't display them over their overwhelming urges on the authoritarian and closed-society styles of governments.

  19. #19
    Kscott's Avatar New and Improved!
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    Default Re: Understanding the Political Spectrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Squeakus Maximus
    Hitler and Stalin didn't have differences really on left and right, they didn't display them over their overwhelming urges on the authoritarian and closed-society styles of governments.
    the real difference is one came from liberal idealogy, the other conservative.

    democratic-authoritarian left-right closed society-open society
    *democratic-authoritarian
    *closed society-open society

    Those both really hint at the same thing

    *left-right
    I just wrote a whole thing describing how you cant just use this as a singular classification. Your just saying people who want change/dont, but people are different on social and economic issues. In whole I think the Heart of Iron way is very flawed.

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    Default Re: Understanding the Political Spectrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Kscott
    the real difference is one came from liberal idealogy, the other conservative.
    Circular reasoning?

    I just wrote a whole thing describing how you cant just use this as a singular classification. Your just saying people who want change/dont, but people are different on social and economic issues. In whole I think the Heart of Iron way is very flawed.
    It might be reasonable to point out that the distinction made between 'social' and 'economic' is arbitrary...after all, it is easy to prove that most of the things that fall under this category, 'social',are economic in the sense that they profoundly influence the distribution, evaluation and procurement of resources.


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