Assistance needed

[crzyrndm]

How much armour affects survivability, and how much a single point is worth, has not (IMO) been conclusively tested as yet. I'd like to change that, and am currently running some tests using PFM to eliminate as many variables as I can by using the same unit in every test.

However, to obtain a large enough sample to draw conclusive results, I'm going to need to run a lot of tests (11 armour levels with ~50 repeats...). So could anyone with PFM run a few tests at each armour level and post the results here. It would save a lot of time

Testing Conditions

Largest unit size (Ultra?). YA having 200 men
Oda yari ashigaru with modified armour (0-10) vs. Date bow ashigaru
Rice fields
Oda as defender, run past trees and then stop. Count casualties after 5 volleys of arrows.
An example replay is attached for clarification.

[Ishan]

Moved from GD forums to mod workshop.

[MDegage]

If your looking for exact values for damage to armor ratio...I don't think you'll be able to do that unless you include a margin of error based on the randomization. You also need to factor in the units Hitpoint value established in battle_entities table, that in my opinion is the most important value inregards to survival.

[crzyrndm]

If your looking for exact values for damage to armor ratio...I don't think you'll be able to do that unless you include a margin of error based on the randomization.

The reason I want such a large sample is so that I can give a good estimate, and a reasonable estimate of variability. I've already done enough testing to say that variance is going to be quite high, atleast for the lower armour levels.

As to the HP, most units in campaign have a standardised amount IIRC. It's only heroes and generals that have more than 1(?).

[MDegage]

yeah, i believe you're correct it's just been so long since I've had anything to do with the original values. Might I ask why you desire such data?

[crzyrndm]

Because I'd like to know how armour scales (ie. is 1 point the same from any base) and establish a region where more armour is just overkill so I'm not over upgrading my units. Also, because I like information

[MDegage]

You know I would also be interested in this data, if I can find the time to help test I will. However, I think the real measurement is inregards to survivability of bombs...Even if you have a BE table HP value of 400, bombs (the tiny ones thrown as a special) will cause significant damage, it wasn't until I increased that to 800 that I was able to negate bomb damage.

[valky]

I wonder if a projectile resistance of 400 or 800 (you made my day ^^) is still considered "real measurement", given that every unit has usually only 1 (hero 2).
As you mentioned, you had to raise the standard to some fantastic value to see some difference, but it doesn't came to your mind, that the explosion-type-damage might use just another physical behaviour than bullets/arrows do? (or even use another table to determine the final damage ^^ as there should be 3 different types for a single grenade, init + fragment(s) + explosion + maybe fragment-piercing-damage [very low])

[even a resistance of 'only' 10 made one unit nearly invincible against arrows]

Super units with 400/800 "hitpoints against missiles" aside, crzyrndm you should raise the half-chance-to-hit for missiles (to e.g. 300) and modify a unit to 100 accuracy, so you should get a more steady casualty number. Even if it is a bit unrealistic, but your init-salvos at max. range shouldn't vary that much and you'll get a way more 'visible' difference between armor values. (so you won't need 50 repeats ^^ per armor level)

In the end you only need like 5 tests for each point of armor and you still 'd be able to see the %-based difference - maybe use fewer volleys too.

[MDegage]

I believe your right Valky, to some extent anyway. Explosions definetly effect moral more then other damage but, I think the actual damage is probably the same as melee and range. Bombs/Rockets use shrapnel that probably has an AP value not to mention a kill zone, but the pure damage value attached to explosives is exceptionally higher then that of arrows or bullets. The more I think about it, I think there may be only one damage type and a variety of layers between that damage. Velocity also effects damage, give a bow projectile a high velocity and it rips through a unit-- and the next 5 units behind it.

Also, I think the "Projectile Resistence" in PFM for that column is deceiving, as I do recall that it was applied to ranged and melee damage, but it has been a while since I've tested it.

Day Dreaming: I wonder why I've never come across the variables for melee weapon damage, probably because the game soley relies on the unit stats melee value but still...you'd think melee weapons would have some kind of difference.

[valky]

I wonder if there is even a real 'hitpoint' value somewhere hidden, or if it's just hardcoded - and just measured with all the resistance stuff.

And about the bombs or whatever (projectiles_explosion): you have the the blast area with diminishing effect and the damage should be the value in the column right besides effect_duration [I'm not quite sure about this value!]. Further it splits off a number of fragments or shrapnel (not to be mistaken with shrapnel-E:TW-evil-ammunition ^^) which do additional damage (if it hits or in the path they are flying to or even explode itself as well AFAIK). The flying fragment itself does also unavoidable damage (a massive impact of 0.1 damage ^^ arrow:0.33).
Taking this numbers into account, it should explain why you have to raise the resistance to 800, cause the init-explosion of 1 grenade does 10 points of damage.

Still this information is very 'self-test-based' as I was highly satisfied with my used E&N:TW mods (DAM-napoleon-artillery-mod was just amazing)
Though there are other who can better explain this

About the melee-resistance, isn't there even a separate entry in BE? But to get a better insight, one would need the formula how exactly all that is being calculated. (armor & defense with different divisor getting added in melee and you have another resistance value in BE)

Velocity also effects damage, give a bow projectile a high velocity and it rips through a unit-- and the next 5 units behind it.

it indirectly affects also the range a unit can fire at, I remember building or 'testing' with the N:TW grenade launcher guys (might be even a mod) .. if the value is too low even if set to e.g. 500m range, it never reaches the target but IMO it shouldn't affect the penetration value of the ballistic projectile.

(slightly off-topic that was ^^)

[MDegage]

I'd be surprized if this engine supports deminishing effect radius on explosions..idk, i suppose I'm less then impressed with CA at the moment (currently frustrated by their redundent BS that makes modding somewhat...unenjoyable), but thinking about the amount of calculations that would happen for explosive "ripples" seems difficult for me to believe...did I mentioned the part about the modding frustration??

The damage value for projectiles I believe is only applied vs buildings, which is different from Empire, I breifly tested this and found that even with a .0 damage was just as effective vs units. Although, I was testing a lot of things at that time and given my addiction to sleep deprivation, it's possible I was playing with matches while sitting in the middle of my street...

It would be nice to find the "tipping" point between dead and alive, it would make creating units that have the right values for the right situations without my digital steriods. Given the sincerely wonderful island vacation that modding Shogun can be, I'm sure it will be a matter of days, nay...hours before we have an answer...

it indirectly affects also the range a unit can fire at, I remember building or 'testing' with the N:TW grenade launcher guys (might be even a mod) .. if the value is too low even if set to e.g. 500m range, it never reaches the target but IMO it shouldn't affect the penetration value of the ballistic projectile.

Well that doesn't supprize me, projectiles have a gravity effect applied as well, velocity is an offset to that....and it also allows it to continue onwards after it "punches" through someone. The best way to test that is to see how arrows (default AP value) will stick in units. Techinically speaking the AP value should apply to the units layer of armor not the entire unit. I made a crossbow (rigged is more like it) unit and the more I up'd the velocity the more units it would "punch" through.

Also, the "melee resistence?" value in BE table is bogus...in previous iterations it was "turning value"

[MDegage]

Hey guys, sorry to be off-topic but I'm trying to touch as many on this as I can. Have you come accross any element that makes a "hero" unit? I thought that perhaps the "new" column at the end of unit_land_stats was used for this as all the "hero" units share that value but alas, it is not so....

[crzyrndm]

Hey guys, sorry to be off-topic but I'm trying to touch as many on this as I can. Have you come accross any element that makes a "hero" unit? I thought that perhaps the "new" column at the end of unit_land_stats was used for this as all the "hero" units share that value but alas, it is not so....

It's more than just extreme stats and a name?

[MDegage]

It is, There are a total of 4 "Hero" units that the game recoginizes as it's own subset. There is even an acheivement for winning a battle using those 4 units plus a general. You'll also notice that in the campaign Clan Management - Stats window there is a statistic for Hero's recruited.

They currently are the Bow Hero, Katana Hero, Yari Hero and Monk Hero, limited 1 each per faction. I've tried creating duplications to no avail, the game has some other method of designating the hero subset outside of the standard unit related tables (i.e. battle_ent, stats, uniform, etc), though I am hopeful it isn't hard coded and doubt that it is for it would require unnecessary additional programing should CA ever want to release more hero units.

It's just one more thing I'd like to implement in my own mod.

[crzyrndm]

So none of the indicators in the units table work? There's a couple in there that indicate hero units, unit limits etc. Specifically, the column 3 after the upkeep

[MDegage]

have an exact replica of all those values, only changing the Unit Ref name, no good. that infantry_hero doesn't translate into a game recognized "hero" unit

[MDegage]

Just wanted to give you guys an update on my own testing. The "bomb" damage does indeed appear to do it's own kind of damage that to some degree, is deminished by armour,HP, etc.. values that we're aware of. However, there is definately something else at play in that area of damage. I've boasted the known "layers" excessively, yet any kind of bomb (e.g. thrown, cannons) will make very short work of a unit stack.

It may very well be that there is no actual defense vs bombs or the type of damage they do because nothing I've been able to do has had any real impact on a units ability to withstand the blast.

[crzyrndm]

Just wanted to give you guys an update on my own testing. The "bomb" damage does indeed appear to do it's own kind of damage that to some degree, is deminished by armour,HP, etc.. values that we're aware of. However, there is definately something else at play in that area of damage. I've boasted the known "layers" excessively, yet any kind of bomb (e.g. thrown, cannons) will make very short work of a unit stack.

It may very well be that there is no actual defense vs bombs or the type of damage they do because nothing I've been able to do has had any real impact on a units ability to withstand the blast.

Reminds me of matchlocks. Ignores armour (mostly), does excessive damage, it even causes the FF penalty to kick in.

Just checked the projectile_explosions table, seems I was right. Fire bomb fragments have a damage of 1 (IIRC enough to ignore armour)

[MDegage]

which seemingly makes it the only damage I can't negate...where is the AP defense for BP samurai?

[crzyrndm]

in the kv_rules table. It's 0.7 unmodified.