Reasons for Quebec Seperatism?

[Eric]

Really, I can't see a single logical reason for Quebec to seperate from the rest of Canada. You say to want to protect your culture. How is it being attacked? Even here in rural Saskatchewan, everything, every sign, every label, is printed in English and French. Quebec culture. You want to seperate because you didn't want to sign the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is that it. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms specifically protects the equal rights of French speaking Canadians with English speaking Canadians. All the Fudemental Freedoms protects Quebec's equal rights with the rest of Canada. And if you feel that your language is still being discriminated against by the government, there's the Language Rights section.
Section 16: "English and French are the official languages of Canada and New Brunswick"
Section 16.1: "the English and French-speaking communities of Canada and New Brunswick have equal rights to educational and cultural institutions"
And if you disagree with any of those things, then there's the Notwithstanding Clause (put into the Charter because of Quebec) which allows any Provincial Legislature to override any part of the Charter. So you still get to be language police, as always.
Really, I can't see one logical reason for Quebec to seperate. Then they say they still want to use Canadian Passports, Canadian Dollars, be protected by the Canadian Army. Either your part of Canada and get all those benefits, or you're on your own and you get nothing. Still want to seperate?

[hsimoorb]

I never understood it either. Then again I never understood the "good old boys" down in missisipi rambling on about how the south lives on. I guess they just feel that as long as they're attached to the rest of canada, they're not relaly indipendent, no matter how many protections and powers they can get for themselves. Pride would explain a lot of it, I think.

P.S. Sorry about the smiley, It's not usualy my kinda thing, but I saw it for the first time, and it fit beutifuly.

[IronBrig4]

They're just like the idiots in the Deep South who save their Confederate dollars. I'd say it's probably some delusional sense of pride.

[Dirty Harry]

Well it was a hippy thing that started in the 70s and 80s, the last ditch campaign that came close in 1995 isn't as close as people think. Quebecers are very cool - don't flame :wink: and were mislead by the ballot question in 1995:

"Do you agree that Quebec should become sovereign after having made a formal offer to Canada for a new economic and political partnership within the scope of the bill respecting the future of Quebec and of the agreement signed on June 12, 1995?"

The seperatists would claim this is a straight up question, but polls show even today that when asked such a question, the yes side gets about 45%, but if asked a question like "Do you want Quebec to seperate from Canada and become Independant" support drops to more like 25%. They are very good at being two-faced like that, 2 elections ago in 2004 when Paul Martin won his minority govt, the federal seperatist party (The Bloc Quebecois) ran a campaign that talked up how they were the best party to represent Quebec's interests in the ottawa parliament and buried the seperatist question. Then after winning 54 of 75 seats in Quebec they turn around and start talking about how that was a victory for sovreignty in their victory speech. Quebecers grew a bit tired of this I guess which was reflected in the Conservatives strong showing in Quebec in 2006, but I'm sure they'll forget again soon but hopefully not before the next Provincial election (2007 or 2008 I think).

One thing working against seperatism for at least the short term is that a new socialist/seperatist party has been founded to challenge the parti quebecois. There was a bi-election recently and they got about 20% of the popular vote. In 1st past the post systems any kind of vote splitting is usually a killer, so if these guys can steal 10-20% of the popular vote from the PQ's socialist/seperatist constituency, that alone should be a death knell for them and set back seperatism at least another term, maybe giving Premier Charest a mandate to give Quebec a dose of Thatcherism (he will really need to bust the entrenched unions) that it desperatly needs since it is dying both economically and demographically, Montreal is an awesome city to grow up in but I can't see myself starting a career here, the real money is out west or in the USA.

[Fenris]

Well it was a hippy thing that started in the 70s and 80s

What ignorance... it goes back further than that, and was established by intellectual figures.

The seperatists would claim this is a straight up question, but polls show even today that when asked such a question, the yes side gets about 45%, but if asked a question like "Do you want Quebec to seperate from Canada and become Independant" support drops to more like 25%.

That will require a very credible source, my friend.

Quebecers grew a bit tired of this I guess which was reflected in the Conservatives strong showing in Quebec in 2006, but I'm sure they'll forget again soon but hopefully not before the next Provincial election (2007 or 2008 I think).

Conservatives were strong in Quebec because people didn't want the liberals to go back to power after what has been revealed about them.

One thing working against seperatism for at least the short term is that a new socialist/seperatist party has been founded to challenge the parti quebecois.

That is totally right, this party not only has very poor intelligence (they really worked against the cause they defend by creating their party), but their electoral program is totally mindless left left left ideology without any substance and thought to it. Really.

I'm am a separatist, but I do agree that a part of my... "fellow" separatists are mindless brainwashed idiots. For one I would prefer a change from federalism to confederalism in Canada, or even a really bid decentralisation of powers. But those two options will never see the light (maybe the second to some extent, but never enough to my liking), so that is why I am separatist.

For anyone who wonders, Quebec has more than enough ressources to sustain itself economically, and there will be no choice for both partys to have a tight commercial and economical cooperation after separation.

Quebec's culture is drowning and federal government takes out tools from Quebec to protect (Bill 101 among others) using a constitution that they have signed and negociated behind Quebec's back (The night of the long knives) and that Quebec has then refused to sign because he was excluded from the negociations.

[Fenris]

A culture which is already pretty well protected. Other than culture, I can't see one military or economic advantage they would acquire by seperating from the rest of Canada. Then there's the loonies who talk about Quebec joining the US. And you think we attack your culture?

The culture is NOT well protected, it is protected, but far less than enough.

And for those who talk about joining the USA, they probably form about 0.1% of the movement, they have absolutely no power among the movement, and are not taken seriousy at all. And their reason is not cultural, but economical.

EDIT: Damn double post, if anyone can merge

[mrme]

I was born in Quebec and I've always hated these damn seperatists, and it's not like I was raised as an anglophone, my first language is French and I went to French schools for about 7 years. BUT I've always considered myself a Canadian first and a Quebecer second.

[Evariste]

I hate it when people try to save cultures for no other reason than that they're afraid to adapt.

[Syron]

I hate it when people try to save cultures for no other reason than that they're afraid to adapt.

That really doesn't make much sense. Like biology, culture is evolutionary not revolutionary. While evolution requires variation it also requires a desire to resist all change unless it is truely innovative.

If they want to try and preserve their way of life so be it. They probably wont succeed completely but I wont say a word against them for trying.

[Angarah]

Seperatists seem pretty ignorant to me... I mean, I can't claim to understand their position (from BC ) but I don't know what good it could possibly do. How is the rest of the country harming your culture? It's not like Quebec is the only place in Canada to speak French, there are hundreds of French-speaking communities across the land.

BTW, why is New Brunswick mentioned seperately in the Charter? I've always wondered about it...

[Eric]

BTW, why is New Brunswick mentioned seperately in the Charter? I've always wondered about it...

I believe that's because New Brunswick was originally a seperate British colony from mainland Canada. Or was that Newfoundland, I can't remember.

[Nationalist_Cause]

Then they say they still want to use Canadian Passports, Canadian Dollars, be protected by the Canadian Army.

No need. America can basically protect the entire continent from invasion. Hell, the Canadians don't really need an army.

[Rusty Catapult]

No need. America can basically protect the entire continent from invasion. Hell, the Canadians don't really need an army.

I think it is necessary for Canadians to have the means to do our part in the world. It's a question of national sovereignety too.

[Lee1026]

And before anyone gets offended by this, remember, it is simple self interest for Americans to defend Canada - Historically, the two oceans have been our greatest wall. If Canada falls, then those two oceans no longer stand to defend us,

[Lee1026]

Why would it matter for sovereignity? Unless if the Canadians want to spend as much as we do, there frankly is not a whole lot an Canadian force can do about a American invarsion.....

[Eric]

I agree with RC. Disbanding the army would be basically giving in to the 'America Jr' and '51st State' stereotypes. And, against the arguement of 'America invading and we can't do anything'. Look at Iraq or the Vietcong they had smaller, less well trained or armed armies and they gave (still giving in the Iraqi Insurgency case) the Americans hell.

[Last Roman]

I agree with RC. Disbanding the army would be basically giving in to the 'America Jr' and '51st State' stereotypes.

Hell, Canada is an independent nation, let them have an army if they want.

anyhoo, about the seperatists, it seems downright stupid for them to want that. From reading the above posts, I see no advantage in trying to do so. Their argument seems weak at best

[Eric]

Very weak indeed. In fact, the whole 'protecting our culture' thing is their only argument and the only advantage of seperating. A culture which is already pretty well protected. Other than culture, I can't see one military or economic advantage they would acquire by seperating from the rest of Canada. Then there's the loonies who talk about Quebec joining the US. And you think we attack your culture? Wait till you see some (some, i'm not saying that you all attack foreign cultures) of those guys.

[Eric]

Well, if you want decentralization of government, you're going to like Stephen Harper. He's big on giving power to the provincial governments. You remind me of the various small times princes Frederick Barbarossa faced when he was attempting to unify Germany. More interested in loose confederation than a unified country. And about the culture, here in Saskatchewan, about as unQuebec as you can get, it is required that you take atleast 8 years of French. In Grade 12, all students go on a trip to Quebec and when they return it is mandatory that they write a report on Quebecois history and culture. The only culture I can see being more protected than Quebec culture in Native culture and protecting what's left of Native culture makes sense. You Quebecois weren't sent off to residential schools where your culture and language was forcibly taken away from you. Your culture wasn't forced to the brink of total disappearance. And what makes Quebec culture so important and great that it must be protected. It's basically a branch of French culture. And is culture really a good reason for seperation, really? Do you think as a seperate country you will be able to protect your culture? Probably not. With a whole new market opened up, the big corporations from the US will move in, bringing American culture and goods with them. And if you do seperate, you think you'll be able to use the Canadian dollar? No you won't! So how will you get countries to recognize your dollar as a currency? Hmmm? What will it's value be? Squat I tell you. Like I said before, if you seperate you get nothing from the rest of us. You are on your own.

And, just for the record: Quebec refused to sign the Charter of Rights because that takes away their right to be language police and force the rest of us to learn their language. So we signed it anyway and forced you to abide by it. If you had just been reasonable and willing to sign, we could of negotiated a solution and avoided this entire problem. But no, so you are stuck now with a Charter that you never signed but are forced too abide by anyways because you were too damn stubborn to negotiate.

[Fenris]

here in Saskatchewan, about as unQuebec as you can get, it is required that you take atleast 8 years of French. In Grade 12, all students go on a trip to Quebec and when they return it is mandatory that they write a report on Quebecois history and culture.

And yet, how many canadians outside Quebec talk french? A very small minority.

And what makes Quebec culture so important and great that it must be protected. It's basically a branch of French culture.

It's our culture and we like it. We do not care wether you guys learn it, we want to keep it for ourselves, and we want to be able to do it. And no it's not a branch of french culture, if you are referring to France's culture . It merged from french culture a long long time ago.

And is culture really a good reason for seperation, really? Do you think as a seperate country you will be able to protect your culture? Probably not.

Yes and yes, to a certain extent.

With a whole new market opened up, the big corporations from the US will move in, bringing American culture and goods with them.

With a whole new market? What new market? And american culture and good are already there and have been there since a while.

And if you do seperate, you think you'll be able to use the Canadian dollar? No you won't!

Why not? Do you have an idea of what you are talking about? Heck, we could take the yen or the euro if we wanted.

Quebec refused to sign the Charter of Rights because that takes away their right to be language police and force the rest of us to learn their language. So we signed it anyway and forced you to abide by it. If you had just been reasonable and willing to sign, we could of negotiated a solution and avoided this entire problem. But no, so you are stuck now with a Charter that you never signed but are forced too abide by anyways because you were too damn stubborn to negotiate.

it takes away their right to be language police ON THEIR OWN TERRITORY, how many time will I have to give you the bill 101 example? We don't really care if you guys learn french, but having some french notions would be nice in a bilingual country. Oh, and how can you speak for the whole canadian political scene of the '80. What are you referring to be "we"? Did Jean Chrétien tell you that he would have negociated? Were you part of the politicians that did it? This is mere speculation with no bases at all. If they were goin to negociate, why didn't they do it during the negociations? Why did they do a secret reunion in a kitchen during the night so Quebec would have no idea of what's happening until it was all signed by everyone but Quebec?