the most balanced EDU?

[Toho]

i was wondering if anyone has an idea on the most balanced and challenging EDU people have made.

i have looked through many EDUs, Call of Warhammer seems to give a lot of attack to its cavalry charges and artillery while BC gives insane defense to its infantry and virtually the same attack on all its archers.

so i was wondering if someone has made a completely plancedbalanced worksheet on what the attack of different types of units should without making some units too weak or too strong, not to mention the EDU seems to screw up some unit behaviors. for example half the men in your unit charge while others just stand idle or some archers shoot while others just stand still and etc.

thanks

[Maltacus]

How do you tell if a unit is too weak or too strong? There are many ways to balance units so it's a bit hard to know what you are after.

I like the Real Combat system developed mainly by Point Blank. It exists as a submod for Stainless Steel and is integrated in the latest releases, and in some submods for Third Age TW and at least one for Broken Crescent. It is a consistent and logical system in the way that all unit stats are calculated using the same formula - whether it is balanced and applied correctly in the different mods is a matter of preference of course (I for one disagree with several things).

EDIT: Also, don't forget the descr_mount and descr_projectile when comparing stats systems.

[Taiji]

The question is too simple, and we're talking about something very complicated, so there isn't an answer.

Also by definition what you like the most is the best, so noone can answer it for you.

I'd suggest you start modding, make your own, and make it different to the rest.

But be prepared to lose a couple of years on it if you have no testers you can trust to see things your way.

[Toho]

i have made my own, but i never find the right balance, so i guess what i should say is what are the most popular EDUs made so far? like is there a certain EDU sheet/formula or a mod that is described to have 'balanced'?

HorseArcher & Darth have both claimed to have succeed in creating a 'good' EDU where the units do not behave retarded and it is balanced over all. now i understand that a balanced EDU may be subjective but i am not looking for perfection but something to look at as a 'good example'.

EDIT:
in short, i want to know when i am editing my own EDU and give the archers a 15 penetration stat for example would that be over powered for a cheap levy unit and overpowered against the infantry who have 14 or 16 armor stats and etc.

[Taiji]

EDIT:
in short, i want to know when i am editing my own EDU and give the archers a 15 penetration stat for example would that be over powered for a cheap levy unit and overpowered against the infantry who have 14 or 16 armor stats and etc.

Start your decisions with armor.

If you think some armor should be a double upgrade compare to some other armor, and you have 3 upgrades for a unit then you have to drop some models.

So learn what you can about armor and then try to represent it ingame.

Then balance your missiles against the armor. Try to get the kill rates you think work best with the various missile weapons against the various armors. You might revise your armor system at this point too.

Then balance infantry melee weapons. It takes ages because results vary so much that you need large samples, or many tests in other words. At this stage you will also want to learn to recode animations.

Then balance cav charges, this is about what you want to see happen when cav hit. It's very tricky to balance, you'll want to adjust the mass of units, etc. (literally 'etc.' excepting armor and missiles maybe)

Then learn to mod the AI and see if you can get it to function better with your unit balancing. Then adjust your unit balancing to see if you can get better results from the AI.

Then balance the AI's recruitment, starting units, and garrison scripts, so you can ensure the AI is going to bring the right units to the battle. An OP unit with a counter needs to be restricted somehow, or the counter needs to be present, etc. Sure some battles can be crap and boring, and the good player should lose some battles of course, but you want most to offer the player a challenge.

Hmmm yup, I think you're pretty much done by then

files:

units
mounts
skeleton
projectiles
area_effects
walls
battle_config
config_ai_battle
formations_ai
descr_strat
buildings
mercenaries
rebel_factions
campaign_script

BTW you can check out my system, link in sig. But do it in a DLV+BB campaign to get the full picture of what it does. There's a huge spread of difference in my system, and the way this is managed in campaign makes it sensible. Plus the AI tends to do weird stuff in custom battles, and my battle AI is campaign_script assisted during normal field battles.

[Éorl]

I don't know if you've already checked it out, but this might be of help to you:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=311674

[Maltacus]

The most popular EDU:s? Many mods are hallowed by fans for their unit balance, but I have never heard of multi-mod EDU:s that would circulate among players to be evaluated. The trouble is that a mods popularity is not necessarily connected to a particularly well-balanced EDU.

Why do you need feedback for editing your own installation? Or are you making a mod? If you like something, go for it even if it means having peasant archers massacring gothic knights. If you can give some sort of example what you would like it to be I could point you to mods I know about that seem to have something similar, but there is no such thing as a "generally good balance" or something that everyone agrees is a "good" EDU.

Have you tried out CoW or BC, by the way? Just looking at stats in the EDU does not tell how good the units will actually be on the field in the mod.

[Bungo Baggins]

I think everybody feels a bit different how a "balanced" edu should look like.

I for example have created a Delphi programm for my TATW modifications that will give me most stats (with accuracy for missiles), recruitment time, cost and upkeep depending on various factors from faction to the kind and quality of armor. It is not perfect, but I can always change it when I change my attitude towards some factor and rebalance my units with it (sadly not ideal for autoresolves and AI conflicts).

You could easily improvise such a programm to get unit stats with your personal preferrences by using Excel or a similar table calculator.

[Polycarpe]

I've wrote a unit guideline not long ago for creating more balanced stats. There's some fixes to do but still the base is there, have a look here

[Moneybags14]

I belive RC(Real Combat) is the most balanced balancing system I have ever played. And balance not only comes from the EDU, but from the mount and projectile folder also.

Some people think that archers should WTFpwn everything they shoot at and then people like me think that archers should be quite useful but definately not unstoppable.

[Noobio]

if i also may add something ...many people also complain about the speed difference between missile units (both archers and skirmishers) and infantry... some times it gets irritating not being able to catch em with your infantry (i get "realism", about heavy-armoured infantry vs. light armoured missile-units etc but gameplay-wise it's annoying)

i guess there are two approaches..
-or make missile units powerful but not that much of a sprinter
-or just make em moderate attackers but also good sprinters
-or just something in the middle by also adjusting their quiver size

[Toho]

i will check them out and i guess the only way to find a good balance is through trial and error amirite?

anyways thanks for the tips and answers