Japanese men bow-legged and women pigeon-toed?

[boofhead]

This thread is not racist nor for racism, although genetics may be involved.

How come? I have noticed it all my life.

Is it because of the sitting down cross-legged habit of the Japanese that men tend to be bow-legged? Personally I've been sitting like this now and then for nearly 40 years, and I guess I could call myself 5% bow legged - is this from that or something else?

Why are Japanese females so often pigeon-toed? (it's kind of cute, by the way) Do they force it? Is it for cultural reasons or because of something genetic?

I've sought various conclusions on the net, yet none completely convincing.

Fact of the Month: Why are so many Japanese Women Pigeon-Toed and Bow-Legged?

When I first arrived I was shocked by the prevalence of pigeon-toed, bow-legged women. These traits seem to characterize the gait of almost all females in Japan, regardless of age or wealth. They shuffle along, usually in high heels, looking as though they're going to topple at any moment. I'm terrified for them. Recently I've even noticied that my students snicker and point at my feet - noting that my feet, unlike theirs, point straight forward or even slightly outward. Nan de? (Why?)

My initial conjecture was that Asians are genetically predisposed to these conditions as they are to alcohol sensitivity and poor eyesight. But, a little research revealed the following: "in all of Asia, only Japanese women walk this way" (The Business Times). Moreover, the deformities are limited to females. So, I chucked that theory. I have, however, found two theories to be rather convincing::

1. Walking pigeon-toed is considered feminine in Japan. Whereas in the West we correct for it in childhood, in Japan this child-like posture is encouraged. It is a holdover from the days when people still wore kimono. If you walk normally while wearing one, the kimono tends to comes open so for modesty people began walking pigeon-toed. Even though people no longer wear kimono, a shuffling walk with one's feet turned inward is still considered modest, feminine, and even cute.

2. It's a symptom of the traditional way of kneeling (seiza) on tatami. I've found that, while men do kneel, women tend to remain kneeling for much longer. In fact, girls tend to sit on their heels or with their bum between their backward-sprayed legs even when they're "relaxing." I don't know how they do it, as I find it incredibly painful. In any case, they do it all the time, and many people suggest that this bows their legs and turns their feet inwards.

In any event, if ever you come to Japan and find yourself horrified by the posture of women here, as was I, try to remember that you're passing judgement with a western eye. What we see as deformity, they see as beauty.

Sources: The Business Times. "Japanese Women's Legs Telltale Signs of Differing Ways of Life."

The above states that it is culturally imposed.

What do you think?

[Vizsla]

I have no idea whether what you are saying about Japanese people is true.
If a trait results in increased chances of offspring, or more offspring, then it would become more prevalent in the population in time.
It worked for blondness 11,000 years ago – originally from a single mutation.
Given enough time and sexual selection for those traits then ‘cultural imposition’ would be the same as natural selection. Maybe girls with small feet and a funny walk had more babies.
Japan was genetically isolated for a while - maybe long enough, maybe not.
It’s a lot easier to tie these things down with fruit flies than it is with humans.

[boofhead]

I have no idea whether what you are saying about Japanese people is true.

It's true. I'm Australian. We do see Japanese people, and not always only on film.

If a trait results in increased chances of offspring, or more offspring, then it would become more prevalent in the population in time.
It worked for blondness 11,000 years ago – originally from a single mutation.
Given enough time and sexual selection for those traits then ‘cultural imposition’ would be the same as natural selection. Maybe girls with small feet and a funny walk had more babies.
Japan was genetically isolated for a while - maybe long enough, maybe not.
It’s a lot easier to tie these things down with fruit flies than it is with humans.

Ok thanks, so you say it might be a melding of both culture and genes.

I've also heard something about calcium deficiency in the diet.

I'm looking for facts here. Anybody have them?

[Manco]

The pigeon-toe thing could easily be entirely cultural, just look at how different Western men and women walk. And I often hear my mother nag about how unelegant girls are for walking with a more typically male 'flat' foot

[boofhead]

The pigeon-toe thing could easily be entirely cultural, just look at how different Western men and women walk. And I often hear my mother nag about how unelegant girls are for walking with a more typically male 'flat' foot

If it's cultural, I'd say the Western equivalent is for a male to be ever-so-slightly bow legged, like he's been riding a horse, with his toes pointing slightly out (aka a ''swagger''). Maybe. A bloke can also look like an arse if he does it (GWB).

Regarding the pigeon-toed girl thing - honestly it seems a tad pedo to me. A Western girl gets this corrected via calipers or whatever, because it's not healthy. And yet a Japanese girl.......she's a grown woman walking like an untrained child?

I guess the question is ''trainable or not''?

[RubiconDecision]

Errr are you basing that merely on personal observation? That doesn't seem too scientific. Do you have any statistical evidence to support your claim? I'm of Japanese descent and I am not bow-legged. My mother is not pigeon toed. I know no one with either of those traits within my extended family over several generations. Seems like a dubious conclusion based on a few observations.

I can think of all kinds of similar observation based conclusions which create stereotypes. I'm sure you mean it innocently. Do you think there is a higher preponderance of glasses and buck teeth within Japanese culture too? How about people of Mexican or African origin? Seems like one of those topics that raises red flags and arouses my ire.

I'm sure you're a good sort, but I'm not following your reasoning at all.

[boofhead]

Errr are you basing that merely on personal observation? That doesn't seem too scientific. Do you have any statistical evidence to support your claim? I'm of Japanese descent and I am not bow-legged. My mother is not pigeon toed. I know no one with either of those traits within my extended family over several generations. Seems like a dubious conclusion based on a few observations.

I can think of all kinds of similar observation based conclusions which create stereotypes. I'm sure you mean it innocently. Do you think there is a higher preponderance of glasses and buck teeth within Japanese culture too? How about people of Mexican or African origin? Seems like one of those topics that raises red flags and arouses my ire.

I'm sure you're a good sort, but I'm not following your reasoning at all.

But it's true.

Just google ''why are so many japanese women pigeon toed?''

It's an oft-noticed thing!

http://news.3yen.com/2006-02-06/oh-legs/

http://tokyo360.net/?p=74

http://injapan.gaijinpot.com/2009/05...d-pigeon-toes/

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...0001927AAGtrLt

I don't see it as any different from asking why African women tend to have big buttocks, which they do. I just know the answer to that, so I'm not asking.

[RubiconDecision]

I don't see it as any different from asking why African women tend to have big buttocks, which they do. I just know the answer to that, so I'm not asking.

Are you suggesting that this is an appropriate topic for discussion in the Athenaeum? This is a very dubious topic indeed. I hope it gets closed. In it insensitive, comes from a very obtuse way of perceiving culture, and without scientific merit.

If we were discussing the incident rate of rickets within Japan, or the historical effects of say "foot-binding" in China (but of course that would belong in the historical section (Vestigia Vetustatis), or whether the merits of imbibing cow's milk versus adulterated soy milk to improve calcium intake in Asian cultures, or whatever then it would be 1000x more appropriate.

These are the kinds of race baiting discussions that resulted in me abandoning modding for three months.

[Phier]

I don't see it as any different from asking why African women tend to have big buttocks, which they do. I just know the answer to that, so I'm not asking.

Thats genetic sexual selection. They like big butts and they can't deny.

The interesting question is if there is a genetic component involved or is it totally learned behavior. Obviously it would be easiest to compare Japanese women who do this with those living in other countries from birth who are fully integrated to see if there is any of the trait or not. With some of the rather strong and odd sexual ideals in Japan, I would expect its totally cultural.

[snuggans]

Errr are you basing that merely on personal observation? That doesn't seem too scientific. Do you have any statistical evidence to support your claim? I'm of Japanese descent and I am not bow-legged. My mother is not pigeon toed. I know no one with either of those traits within my extended family over several generations. Seems like a dubious conclusion based on a few observations.

I can think of all kinds of similar observation based conclusions which create stereotypes. I'm sure you mean it innocently. Do you think there is a higher preponderance of glasses and buck teeth within Japanese culture too? How about people of Mexican or African origin? Seems like one of those topics that raises red flags and arouses my ire.

I'm sure you're a good sort, but I'm not following your reasoning at all.

he's not stating ALL Japanese are like this, but the peculiarity is very prevalent with the Japanese.

here's a poorly titled example:

[Condottiere 40K]

I was told the "pigeon-toed" gait came from wearing the kimono, and the bowlegged aspect from the traditional sitting position that they adopt.

[Robin de Bodemloze]

My fiancee's mother has a theory that mothers carrying their babies on their backs (thereby forcing the baby to put his/her legs either side of the mother) causes the bow-leggedness. My fiancee's the proof apparently

[Condottiere 40K]

I've read about that as well, but I wonder how many mothers still carry babies that way, and haven't switched to a baby carriage.

Though piggy back riding is an anime staple.

[Robin de Bodemloze]

Shrug. Because their mothers carried them that way and their grandmothers carried their mothers that way before that? Fewer people are aware of this than we think I reckon. I hadn't heard of it until my future in-law said that and my fiancee started comparing legs with me

[Shneckie]

The bow legged thing could simply be down to a high level of rickets in Japanese society. Rickets come about from a deficiency in vitamin D and the high levels of deficiency in Japan could easily be attributed to Japan's society i.e not enough sunlight at a young age.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Well time to play Captain Obvious here!

They are pigeon toed and bow-legged because, as we all know, Japanese are all karate masters. Therefore the women are always practicing sanchin dachi in the morning before going to work/school and whenever no one is looking

Doing this:


gives them the pigeon toe.

Also, the men are always practicing Kiba dachi.

Doing this:


Gives them the bowed legged look.

Duh.

[RubiconDecision]

That would make an intriguing discussion Wild Bill. Sanchin has enormous health benefits from the development of muscular tone from dynamic tension (it's very similar to the proto-yoga of Charles Atlas) and intensely expanding respiratory capacity. You could probably find a sports medicine article to demonstrate some study of this in Japan/Okinawa and there would actually be scientific journal articles with data supporting both for and against.

Oh yeah, lots of Japanese are keeeratee MASTERS as they say it in my beloved South in the USA. They all walk around using horse stance and odd Okinawan deep lunging stances of Naihanchi.

[boofhead]

Rubicon I am sorry that you are somehow offended. It was not my intention. I am in no way ''race baiting''. I like and respect Japanese people and I enjoy hearing about Japanese culture.

To me and many others it is blindingly obvious that far more Japanese girls walk around with pigeon toes or knock-knees per capita than non-Japanese. All a person has to do is look, it doesn't require a scientific study to prove this, just a pair of eyeballs. Westerners who have lived in Japan mention it. I've seen it when Japanese tourists come to my country and on many videos.

The reason I put it in the Athenaeum is because I was wondering if anyone had any scientific reasoning for it. If I put it in the Thema Devia it would have possibly been race-baiting, because then it would be open slather on attacking Japanese......which In have no interest in doing.

I just find this phenomenon curious.

[RubiconDecision]

Rubicon I am sorry that you are somehow offended. It was not my intention. I am in no way ''race baiting''. I like and respect Japanese people and I enjoy hearing about Japanese culture.

To me and many others it is blindingly obvious that far more Japanese girls walk around with pigeon toes or knock-knees per capita than non-Japanese. All a person has to do is look, it doesn't require a scientific study to prove this, just a pair of eyeballs. Westerners who have lived in Japan mention it. I've seen it when Japanese tourists come to my country and on many videos.

The reason I put it in the Athenaeum is because I was wondering if anyone had any scientific reasoning for it. If I put it in the Thema Devia it would have possibly been race-baiting, because then it would be open slather on attacking Japanese......which In have no interest in doing.

I just find this phenomenon curious.

On any given day, over the course of my life, I have at times been struck by cultural phenomena that made me think, "Why does this happen within a culture?" There can be a natural curiosity as a result of peripheral contact with different races, subtypes within a nation, ethnicities, spiritual belief systems. At times they are confounding.

I have worked with immigrants for four years from diverse places. I worked with highly educated Cubans and poorly educated agrarian Cubans. I worked with Sudanese Dinkas with higher than the normal mathematics skills of the average American, but less social maturity with dating than the average 14 year old American male. Each culture has unique challenges based on terrain, other cultures within their nation fighting for resources, nutrition, cultural patterns that cause genetic preference of body types, etc.

I'd say, if you're truly interested and feel there is some scientific merit to your observation, then go to EBSCOhost and do some sincere academic research into whatever you think is true about a culture. If it's valid, there's probably anthropological data as there is enormous academic freedom.

Saying things like people of African origin have big hips is not necessarily true, but there may be a cultural preference and hence a preponderance within certain regions than others. This might lead one to conclude that most or all African folks are one way, when in fact it isn't true. Africa is a enormous region of a plethora of ethinicities with many diverse cultural affectations and is a very broad generalization that is probably without academic value as an adjective.

For example, there is a tribe of Native Americans called the Pima. They have a higher incident rate of diabetes, obesity, and far greater risk factors for cardiovascular disease as well as strokes. This doesn't mean all Pima are fat. It certainly could manifest as a genetic inability to process LDL cholesterol. A broad generalization based on observation could be spun into the statement, "Native Americans are mostly fat." Of course this would be grossly incorrect.

[Rolling Thunder]

My observation is that African women of certain Bantu-speaking tribes do tend to have wide hips, large breasts and large buttocks. Most likely this is due to selection pressure, as an individual expressing these phenotypes is more likely to breed and pass on the genes for these phenotypes. My observations were from amongst the primarily-Zulu culture in KZN and the surrounding provinces. It would seem that this is a cultural selection pressure.