Vampiresbane's Art of Diplomacy Guide

[Vampiresbane]

Thanks for cool guide! However there are some questions left. As far I can see this thread is still alive.

1. As I understand there is no instant penalty to Reputation for starting war(only for brocken trade threaty this case) but it is constant penalty being at war every turn? If there is penalty for starting than who gets it? Starter or victim or both? And prize for being at alliance twice bigger so one alliance negate effect of two wars?
2. Is there any penalty to Reputation after faction has been at war eliminated? As far I understand if the faction is dead the diplomacy status continue being same "at war" with that faction.
3. Attacking itself don't affect Reputation? Only executing/releasing, attack ally/enemy of ally. So if I attack just some army at war with me(not ally and not enemy of my ally) this act don't effect the Reputation? Only relations with Pope(in case of catholics)? So if you attacking the enemy of your ally, releasing them and capture their cities: all those will only increase your Reputation?
4. How to change this stacked "at war" status with dead nation? Maybe anybody know how to edit saves for this matter? The command "Diplomacy_stance" doesn't work.

Thanks for answers in advance!

1. It's a constant penalty that grows smaller over time. Both participants in the war get the reputation penalty every turn until the war is over. And yes the bonus/turn for alliances is twice than that of the penalty/turn for being at war. Keep in mind depending on when each alliance/war was started, the diminishing returns for either might make one very small versus the other (for instance if you've been at war for a very long time, the penalty will be pretty small, but if you allied two turns ago, the bonus/turn is fairly high). Short answer: But you're correct in that an alliance cancels two wars if both happen at the same time.
2. I don't believe so. Least it'd be crazy to think that CA would code in a continual penalty for being at war with a destroyed faction. Short answer: I think after you destory a faction, you're considered at peace with that faction.
3. Attacking itself (assuming you're at war already) doesn't affect reputation, only relations with the faction you're attacking. Attacking an ally of your ally hurts relations with both your ally and the 'victim.' Attacking the enemy of your ally, hurts the relations with the enemy/victim, but boosts relations with your ally.
Short answer: Yes, releasing and executing only affect reputation of the actions you've listed.
4. I don't think you get a penalty for being at war with a dead nation so this shouldn't matter.

And one more: does making the vassal somebody affect the Reputation?

Yes, it does raise your reputation, mainly because you're adding another 'alliance' to your faction and stops a war you were having. It also affects the vassal's reputation since it generally adds an alliance and stops any wars they were having with you and your own allies.

Hope that helps and if you're still confused, don't worry. I enjoy talking about this stuff. You might even find out something I don't know (ie there might be code that gives a penalty with a dead faction after all, I've just never heard of it or seen its repurcusions in game.)

[Incredible Bulk]

On chapter 6 it mentions that allies break alliance with you and one reason is walking you armies on their land, here's the thing your AI allies do it to you. It angers me, but I have no choice but to either allow them or attack them. There is no diplomatic choice to tell them to leave. And I don't want to offer military access cause I don't want them around. That's the crapoy thing they get mad at you for doing it but they do it to you can don't really have a choice

[pkptz]

Thanks a lot for the answer!

Quote: "Short answer: I think after you destory a faction, you're considered at peace with that faction."
After destroing the faction I'm will be at war with them until the eng - that the sadly truth. That's the reason of question #3 - those "war status" with dead nation prevents me to make another alliance with their previous ally. Hopely penalty was removed. However I'm not shure about it cause see a lot of other bugs in the game.
It's nice with vassals! So that mean the vassal is listed like ally? If you want to ally with somebody who get a lot of allies - your enemies: make him vassal. Ok. Will do. One more use for almost extinguished faction.

[Vampiresbane]

those "war status" with dead nation prevents me to make another alliance with their previous ally.

While you might be correct about being still being at war with dead faction, I highly doubt you can't make alliances with his old allies after you destroy a faction.

I'll try to get a screenshot of me doing this, but I'm almost positive you can ally with your enemy's allies after they're destroyed.

On chapter 6 it mentions that allies break alliance with you and one reason is walking you armies on their land, here's the thing your AI allies do it to you. It angers me, but I have no choice but to either allow them or attack them. There is no diplomatic choice to tell them to leave. And I don't want to offer military access cause I don't want them around. That's the crapoy thing they get mad at you for doing it but they do it to you can don't really have a choice

Yeah unfortunately that's one of the limits of M2TW diplomacy; you can't get neutral or allies to get off your land. Do realize though, a lot of times they're just looking for an undefended city to attack and this is a prelude to war (sometimes even with allies) -- so beef up that garrison. Still I understand your frustration. It does seem like a double standard.

[Incredible Bulk]

While you might be correct about being still being at war with dead faction, I highly doubt you can't make alliances with his old allies after you destroy a faction.

I'll try to get a screenshot of me doing this, but I'm almost positive you can ally with your enemy's allies after they're destroyed.



Yeah unfortunately that's one of the limits of M2TW diplomacy; you can't get neutral or allies to get off your land. Do realize though, a lot of times they're just looking for an undefended city to attack and this is a prelude to war (sometimes even with allies) -- so beef up that garrison. Still I understand your frustration. It does seem like a double standard.

Got it thanks bro
Here is another thing I just noticed on my current campaign with one if my allies, so they were my allies almost from the start and even after that we form a stronger alliance with a marriage, however I notice on one turn that they had a assasin outside my capital with my FL in it, we'll I always keep a spy and an a assasin of my own with my FL, well a few turns later they ha another assasins, so I killed him again. Why? What the heck?

[Vampiresbane]

Got it thanks bro
Here is another thing I just noticed on my current campaign with one if my allies, so they were my allies almost from the start and even after that we form a stronger alliance with a marriage, however I notice on one turn that they had a assasin outside my capital with my FL in it, we'll I always keep a spy and an a assasin of my own with my FL, well a few turns later they ha another assasins, so I killed him again. Why? What the heck?

What's their reputation? And what are your relations at with them?

It might be possible one or both reputation and relations are low with them (IE they're untrustworthy themselves or something caused your relations to drop--even if you have a marriage alliance, repetitively attacking one of their allies will hurt your relations with them pretty quickly).

Or it's just the AI knowing it shouldn't directly attack you and so is being subversive. I've definitely seen this as well. It might be one of those things that the AI does on the campaign map that doesn't match its diplomatic actions/status. Heck I've seen a wel respected papacy send assassins against my leaders and I had a high reputation.

[Incredible Bulk]

What's their reputation? And what are your relations at with them?

It might be possible one or both reputation and relations are low with them (IE they're untrustworthy themselves or something caused your relations to drop--even if you have a marriage alliance, repetitively attacking one of their allies will hurt your relations with them pretty quickly).

Or it's just the AI knowing it shouldn't directly attack you and so is being subversive. I've definitely seen this as well. It might be one of those things that the AI does on the campaign map that doesn't match its diplomatic actions/status. Heck I've seen a wel respected papacy send assassins against my leaders and I had a high reputation.

Ah yes that's what is causing it, i just did war with another of their allies, so I think that's what triggered it

[pkptz]

Quote
"While you might be correct about being still being at war with dead faction, I highly doubt you can't make alliances with his old allies after you destroy a faction."

The fact is that the Alliance possibility is not appear in the Diplomacy dialog with the Pope. Recently I have found in some discussion that the reason for this my faction is being at war with dead faction has been an ally of Pope previously. This looks pretty reasonable. At least it explains why no possibility to ally. It could be the trigger in the game which clear out your relations with faction if you kill them normally by battles and generals. But that faction was eliminated by killers so just disappeared at once, became rebels. I don't know if it will be the same if you fight them down normal way. Have you tried this way of enemy elimination and check consiquences?

[Vampiresbane]

Quote
"While you might be correct about being still being at war with dead faction, I highly doubt you can't make alliances with his old allies after you destroy a faction."

The fact is that the Alliance possibility is not appear in the Diplomacy dialog with the Pope. Recently I have found in some discussion that the reason for this my faction is being at war with dead faction has been an ally of Pope previously. This looks pretty reasonable. At least it explains why no possibility to ally. It could be the trigger in the game which clear out your relations with faction if you kill them normally by battles and generals. But that faction was eliminated by killers so just disappeared at once, became rebels. I don't know if it will be the same if you fight them down normal way. Have you tried this way of enemy elimination and check consiquences?

I'd have to test it multiple ways. I'm in the middle of an ARR, but this might become my next little "m2tw project" because there have been times where I thought I should be able to ally to a faction but didn't get the option. This might actually be the reason.

[Vampiresbane]

Quote
"While you might be correct about being still being at war with dead faction, I highly doubt you can't make alliances with his old allies after you destroy a faction."

The fact is that the Alliance possibility is not appear in the Diplomacy dialog with the Pope. Recently I have found in some discussion that the reason for this my faction is being at war with dead faction has been an ally of Pope previously. This looks pretty reasonable. At least it explains why no possibility to ally. It could be the trigger in the game which clear out your relations with faction if you kill them normally by battles and generals. But that faction was eliminated by killers so just disappeared at once, became rebels. I don't know if it will be the same if you fight them down normal way. Have you tried this way of enemy elimination and check consiquences?

Turns out pkptz you're right. Or at least I think you're definitely onto something. Playing my latest AAR out as Spain, I found at some point I couldn't ally with HRE/France/Pope. It was because I had previously fought one of their now dead allies. There was one work around though. Keep a princess around or watch for a faction to have a princess and keep your heir/king wifeless. Marriages will override this bug and give you an alliance. This works because if the dead faction still existed and you were at war, even then marriage alliances override war and make all parties involved at peace immediately.

Not a great fix, but it's something. But I was wrong and you were definitely right. (Oh and sorry for taking so long to ferret this out. It's a hard thing to test.)

[Edward Stark]

So if i download the file mentioned in Chapter 10 will this work with the patched 1.2 version?

[Vampiresbane]

So if i download the file mentioned in Chapter 10 will this work with the patched 1.2 version?

I'm using it right now with both patched 1.2 vanilla m2tw and updated m2tw retrofit mod. I can tell in both that you gain reputation a lot faster and sometimes, just from doing occupations (last couple years I haven't released ANY troops, only ransomed, but my rep is still climbing because of my occupations).

Just make sure it's in the folder the author of file mentions and it should be fine.

[Psychonautslog]

Does an alliance with non-catholic countries have a negative impact on papal relations?

[Vampiresbane]

Does an alliance with non-catholic countries have a negative impact on papal relations?

I don't believe so, unless the Papal States are at war with that faction (then it's as a result of normal faction to faction relations). It's something worth testing though since attacking Islamic factions DOES increase Papal Relations.

Attacking Orthodox factions has no effect on Papal Relations UNLESS you're on a crusade then don't even consider attacking Constantinople while en route. M2TW is coded in such a way that if you do so, your Papal relations goes from something to ZERO if you do. Completely bottoms out.

Otherwise I don't believe having a random alliance with Russia or Egypt for instance would have any effect. Granted I wouldn't recommend allying with Egypt or Turkey since SO many crusades end up at their doorstep, but it's something that does happen if you're say, Venice, allying with Turkey against the Byzantines.

[SusaVile]

Reading all this made me change a bit on some ideas I had great post, props to Vampiresbane and all the others!

[SusaVile]

That "don't attack Constantinople while on Crusade" effect is simply because, historically, there was one crusade who got to Constantinople and took it, through the manipulation of the Doge Dandolo, i think. Good thing that it exists, though, it's nice to have such historical things happening under the shadow on a game. I wonder if there is somekind of other mechanisms like that controlling some faction actions as well

[riuk881]

I've noticed that my reputation suffers when I attack rebels armies that pop-up in my lands. I know it's the rebels because I did nothing else that turn but clear my kingdom of rebels.

[Runner]

this guide is great!!
and the comments are very useful too~

the guide has mentioned that "Occupying a settlement +0.05 Reputation" is currently bugged.
there is a file to fix it.

i want to download this file.
may anyone post the link of this file? thank you!

[Dr. Conquest]

this guide is great!!
and the comments are very useful too~

the guide has mentioned that "Occupying a settlement +0.05 Reputation" is currently bugged.
there is a file to fix it.

i want to download this file.
may anyone post the link of this file? thank you!

You can make the correction quite easily. You need to unpack the game files and look for 'descr_faction_standing.txt' in the data folder.

Towards the end of the file you will find the following section of code:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0103_occupy_settlement_increase_global
WhenToTest OccupySettlement

FactionStanding global 0.05
FactionStanding target_faction normalise 1.0 20
FactionStanding target_allies normalise 1.0 40
; FactionStanding target_enemies normalise -1.0 40

;------------------------------------------
; Trigger 0102_city_razed_decrease_global
; WhenToTest CitySacked

FactionStanding global -0.05
FactionStanding target_faction normalise -1.0 10
FactionStanding target_allies normalise -1.0 20
; FactionStanding target_enemies normalise 1.0 20

Comment out the problem lines with semi-colons exactly as shown:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0103_occupy_settlement_increase_global
WhenToTest OccupySettlement

FactionStanding global 0.05
FactionStanding target_faction normalise 1.0 20
FactionStanding target_allies normalise 1.0 40
; FactionStanding target_enemies normalise -1.0 40

;------------------------------------------
; Trigger 0102_city_razed_decrease_global
; WhenToTest CitySacked

;FactionStanding global -0.05
;FactionStanding target_faction normalise -1.0 10
;FactionStanding target_allies normalise -1.0 20
; FactionStanding target_enemies normalise 1.0 20

Make sure that your 'medieval2.preferences.cfg' is configured to use the unpacked files and you should be good to go.

[Vlad Dracul]

You can make the correction quite easily. You need to unpack the game files

And how exactly can I do that? I have Gold Edition, unpacking has anything to do with DVD 1 or DVD 2? Or should I unpack something that's already installed in my Medieval II folder?

Make sure that your 'medieval2.preferences.cfg' is configured to use the unpacked files and you should be good to go.

How?