Late Era Seljuk Defense

**Fotchimus** · October 19, 2011, 09:47 AM

So I decided I wanted to try a late era Seljuk game for quicker access to janissaries and all that fun stuff. Unfortunately this also means I have to deal with the mongols early on with not much time to prepare. I was wondering if anyone has any advice on how to deal with them as the Seljuks. I've fought them once in a fort outside of Baghdad and they nearly won! Here's my current defense situation:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

As soon as I took Baghdad I started working on ways to improve the defenses. It has ballista towers, an armorer, and I'm working on a militia drill square for hopefully more plentiful saracen militia. Included in the garrison is a unit of mourtatoi from Canakkale for stake laying and two mangonels for good measure. Tabriz has a similar defense but it only has stone walls and not large stone walls.

Will they run out of armies if they keep losing them to my defenses? Can a defense like that last against several stacks? I'm hoping they will run out of armies attacking me and then I can eventually counter attack into their lands - but I'm not sure that will work since this is the first time I've fought them before.

This is 6.4, VH/VH, Savage AI, RC/RR

**Ichon** · October 19, 2011, 10:29 AM

If you use stakes at gate a garrison like that should be able to repel 2-3 stacks before needing retraining. Probably alot more if you play on easier difficulties. The main problem is you have no good heavy infantry. Saracen militia will plug a choke point for awhile but are eventually worn done before the Mongols run out of troops in a typical army. Also they die quite heavily to arrows. That is a gate defense army. If you retreat to the central square you will lose 50% or more to arrows. Basically hold Baghdad as long as possible, and then the next city, and the next... etc. The Mongols do run out of armies but it takes awhile. If you can eliminate 3 armies per city and a few armies in field battles with mobile cavalry armies then you probably shouldn't lose more than 4-5 cities before Mongols start to grind down though it depends on how many armies they sent north into Russia. Anatolia is your key defense zone. Easier to defend and resupply as well as lots of mountains for defensive field battles.

**Homeros** · October 19, 2011, 12:11 PM

Defending cities and castles is the easiest way to stop and/or slow-down the Mongol advance. In the field you'll need lots of Ottomans - they are great against HA and Mongol infantry.

Holding the gate is not advisable when the Mongols bring siege equipment (which they usually do). I managed to hold Bagdad, Yerevan, Tibilisi and Tabriz with only two mangonel units and half a stack of saracen/spear militia. I deployed all troops in the city square to hold the enemy line while the mangonels lop projectiles into the crowded Mongol ranks. It will be carnage and you will lose many men (but militia can be re-trained the next turn so no big deal). All you need to do is hold the line. When the Mongols break through, you've lost the city. One or two fast moving cavalry units (turkish HA are cheap and great for this task) to chase routers will be helpful too.

Don't bother when they take some of your settlements, some will fall eventually, but the Mongol hordes don't last forever. Anatolia is the most important part of your empire, it must be kept secure at all cost. Everything else can be taken back and you can always use a small (and mobile) force to go behind the Mongol lines which can net new castles and cities for you to defend and some Mongol stacks will turn around and relieve the main front.

In my late-era Seljuk campaign I'd conquered most of Khwarez territory around 1320. The Mongols usually leave only one unit behind to defend and some cities are without a garrison - they are easy targets around 1270-80 (no more Mongol stacks spawn).

**Fotchimus** · October 19, 2011, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by Homeros

Defending cities and castles is the easiest way to stop and/or slow-down the Mongol advance. In the field you'll need lots of Ottomans - they are great against HA and Mongol infantry.

Holding the gate is not advisable when the Mongols bring siege equipment (which they usually do). I managed to hold Bagdad, Yerevan, Tibilisi and Tabriz with only two mangonel units and half a stack of saracen/spear militia. I deployed all troops in the city square to hold the enemy line while the mangonels lop projectiles into the crowded Mongol ranks. It will be carnage and you will lose many men (but militia can be re-trained the next turn so no big deal). All you need to do is hold the line. When the Mongols break through, you've lost the city. One or two fast moving cavalry units (turkish HA are cheap and great for this task) to chase routers will be helpful too.

Don't bother when they take some of your settlements, some will fall eventually, but the Mongol hordes don't last forever. Anatolia is the most important part of your empire, it must be kept secure at all cost. Everything else can be taken back and you can always use a small (and mobile) force to go behind the Mongol lines which can net new castles and cities for you to defend and some Mongol stacks will turn around and relieve the main front.

In my late-era Seljuk campaign I'd conquered most of Khwarez territory around 1320. The Mongols usually leave only one unit behind to defend and some cities are without a garrison - they are easy targets around 1270-80 (no more Mongol stacks spawn).

Ok I've been trying your tactic where you defend in the town square and it's hilariously effective.

Before:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

After:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I wonder if this same tactic would work with ballistas. Since they have a bit of arc to them they might be able to fire over the V formation and into the crowded mongols sitting back shooting arrows.

**Ichon** · October 20, 2011, 04:51 PM

Ugh. That is why I don't use siege artillery. Yes it is effective but its a bit too easy and the AI is too stupid to flank. You can try Germanicus latest AI and at least there will usually be 2-4 flanking units but even then you'll win with small losses.

**Fotchimus** · October 20, 2011, 07:27 PM

Well it's not perfect. At close range my mangonels seem to hit my own guys more than the enemy...

**Dirty Harry** · October 21, 2011, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Fotchimus

Well it's not perfect. At close range my mangonels seem to hit my own guys more than the enemy...

Always try to aim towards their furthest unit back because you can expect some shots to drop 50 yards in front of your target (which could possibly be your troops).

I agree with Ichon tho, it's pretty cheap and you should avoid it because it's borderline cheating (which I don't have any problem with in single player games if you enjoy it, but let's just be honest to what it is). It's one thing to stick a mangonel near your outer walls and lob some at the siege army while they're still outside but it's another to do it point blank into a jammed street because the AI is too dumb to use any of the other streets but the most direct one.

**Basileus of Byzantium** · October 22, 2011, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by Ichon

Ugh. That is why I don't use siege artillery. Yes it is effective but its a bit too easy and the AI is too stupid to flank. You can try Germanicus latest AI and at least there will usually be 2-4 flanking units but even then you'll win with small losses.

Isn't Germanicus' AI already implemented?

**Ichon** · October 22, 2011, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by Basileus of Byzantium

Isn't Germanicus' AI already implemented?

I think one of the main things Germanicus changed since 6.4 is how AI does sieges so the version in SS is a bit older otherwise you are correct.

**Ultra123** · October 22, 2011, 12:33 PM

i would say go on use that tactic, its very fun ive used it myself, another fun way would be if you had access to elepahnts, those arty elepahnts are hilarious if they charge in packed streets like that to a far away unit

fun factor over ego....

**Fotchimus** · October 22, 2011, 02:21 PM

I don't mind using these tactics. The mangonels really only get about 100-300 kills, usually less than my archers. They're more for the morale shock on the enemy than anything else. I think my favorite battle was getting them all packed in a long street and having a ballista fire down the street for the entire battle netting about 300 kills. It's still a challenge sometimes because the Seljuk infantry are so bad in this era you have to resort to doing all kinds of silly things.

I'm on turn 70 now and I've only lost Tabriz. They seem to be not getting reinforcements anymore and I'm slowly wearing them down. So far a very fun and different campaign.

**Ichon** · October 22, 2011, 03:27 PM

The one thing with AI bringing siege equipment is that usually once you defeat the first assault and the gate goes down the AI never tries again. So if you can hang onto the walls and gate its much easier to defend multiple times. Gate oil and archers/crossbow/javelins on walls firing down...

Retreating to the central square your units won't retreat but then Mongol arrows take out 50% of your army making multiple siege defense more difficult. If you use stakes and siege artillery then maybe central square is easier but otherwise holding at the walls is better.