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  1. #1
    Agent Miles's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Civilization's best friend

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/nature/dogs-decoded.html

    Dogs were thought to have been domesticated about 13,000 years ago. Now DNA testing reveals that they may actually have been our pets 100,000 years ago. Hunter/gatherer humans are much more successful with dogs than not. It was even stated that without dogs, the domestication of herds of sheep and cattle are not successful. Sooo…

    Migrating bands of Homo sapiens attract wolves to their kills and share what they cannot eat. The wolves become their dogs. This symbiotic relationship becomes very successful, more so than cave dwelling Neanderthals. The Neanderthals died out for a lot of reasons, but this may have been key to our superior survival ability. Perhaps, dogs have been our best “tool”.

    http://media.caltech.edu/press_releases/11913
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  2. #2
    Claudius Gothicus's Avatar Petit Burgués
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    Default Re: Civilization's best friend

    Undoubtedly so, we had a pretty nice time catching prey when we found out some other animal was able to give us a helping hand at it while asking for little more than skin and bones.

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    Ancient Aliens's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Civilization's best friend

    Oh yeah. Hunting with a trained hunting dog is cake.

  4. #4
    cpdwane's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Civilization's best friend

    Surely this sort of thing would be quite easy to date, seen as you would expect dog carcasses to be found around early human sites (or at least traces of their prescence, such as dog tooth bite marks on bones that had been cooked by humans) if they had been living alongside each other?

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  5. #5

    Default Re: Civilization's best friend

    The article attached is 13 years old (I only noticed the date when the article stated that there was no evidence for human/neanderthal breeding).

    Unfortunately it doesn't actually give the DNA evidence only that there IS DNA evidence.

    This is a pretty interesting article that goes deeper into the subject.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs.../9907dogs2.htm
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Civilization's best friend

    I guess it makes sense, dogs for hunter gatherers, cats for farmers.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Civilization's best friend

    Here's the most recent Nova iteration:
    http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Do...?trkid=2361637

    Available for streaming.

    The last few segments are particularly good: wolf vs dog instincts for human interaction, the demonstrations showing dogs' ability to 'read' the human face for emotions, and the Soviet fox breeding project wherein after 30~40 generations of selecting for 'tameness' and 'viciousness' they've pseudo-domesticated a wild animal.
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  8. #8
    Agent Miles's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Civilization's best friend

    Actually, my first link was that streaming video of "Dogs Decoded".
    An army of rabbits led by a lion will always overcome an army of lions led by a rabbit. Napoleon

  9. #9
    Vizsla's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Civilization's best friend

    If dogs are descended from wolves then the DNA evidence suggests that they diverged a long time ago, at or before the time we became ‘modern’ humans: ~100,000 years. There is an alternative way to look at it: there could be a pre-dog species that humans domesticated only a few thousand years ago (~13,000).
    If dogs and wolves diverged into separate species before dogs were domesticated the lack of physical evidence of domesticated wolves around early human habitation disappears. In this scenario there is no evidence of a half-way wolf/dog creature because it never existed.

    I’m fairly sure that dog’s are descended from a separate species to wolves.
    So is this guy (he’s at lot more convincing and knowledgeable than I am):
    http://darrennaish.blogspot.com/2006...estic-dog.html

    EDIT: Found a pdf to Janice Koler-Matznick's 'The Origin of the Dog Revisited'
    http://newguinea-singing-dog-conserv...inOfTheDog.pdf
    Last edited by Vizsla; October 20, 2011 at 10:08 AM.
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  10. #10
    Manco's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Civilization's best friend

    Actually in current taxonomy dogs and wolves are still the same species, they're also fully genetically compatible for offspring (as are dingos).

    Your sources seem reliable, but they don't appear to be the consensus.
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  11. #11
    Vizsla's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Civilization's best friend

    That’s the whole point of science, the consensus is often wrong. You’re supposed to challenge it.
    I’ve never met anyone who believes in phlogiston.
    Doctors no longer believe in humours and treat illnesses with bloodletting.
    No one believes the Earth is the centre of the universe and the sun rotates around us.
    Yet all of these theories were once the consensus opinion.

    Koler-Matznick discusses the molecular evidence here:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Koler-Matznick
    According to Wayne, Van Valkenburgh and O'Brien (1991), Nei's genetic
    distance between dog and wolf, based on one-dimensional allozyme electrophoresis, is
    0.042. This is slightly greater than the 0.030 reported for leopard (Panthera pardus) and
    jaguar (Panthera onca). Nei's genetic distances among bear species from single-copy
    DNA hybridization are slightly lower than the dog and wolf's (Wayne,Van Valkenburgh
    & O'Brien 1991), yet they have not been declared the same species because of the
    relatively small genetic/molecular distance.
    The available mtDNA evidence is interpreted as indicating that the dog and wolf
    could have separated about 76,000 to 135,000 YBP (Tsuda et al.1997; Vilà et al. 1997).
    Vilà et al. (1997) found only one mtDNA haplotype shared by wolves and DDs, 25 types
    specific to dogs and 26 to wolves. Six of the unique dog types inter-grade with wolf
    types on relatedness diagrams (Vilà, et al. 1997). Tsuda et al. (1997) also found that dog
    haplotypes, while different, inter-graded with wolves in a neighbor-joining analysis.
    From this statistically close relationship of mtDNA types, both Vilà et al. (1997) and
    Tsuda et al. (1997) conclude that the wolf is the DD's ancestor. However, in Vilà et al.
    (1997) 19 dog types (including primitive dogs') grouped together separately from wolves,
    indicating they are monophyletic. The maximum within-dog divergence given is 12
    substitutions, the divergence between wolves/dogs as 12 substitutions and between dogs9
    and coyote/jackal as 20 substitutions and two insertions. Thus, in mtDNA, dogs are more
    distantly related to jackals/coyotes than to wolves. The mtDNA of C. l. pallipes and C. l.
    arabs, the wolves closest to primitive dog size and morphology so often proposed as the
    DD ancestor (e.g., Gollan 1982; Corbett 1995), are no closer to DD types than other C.
    lupus (Vilà et al. 1997). No study found compared dog mtDNA to Canis simensis or
    Cuon alpinus.
    The mtDNA studies cited above conclude that the DD is a wolf without
    addressing the inherent limitations and assumptions of such studies. MtDNA is
    essentially a single locus marker, inherited in a clonal fashion, and is only effective at
    estimating maternal lineage relationships. The inclusion of nuclear DNA in analyses
    would be more meaningful and might lend clarity to the heterogeneity observed in the
    mtDNA phylogenetic trees. Cronin (1993: 343) shows that a relatedness tree based on
    mtDNA sequence divergence may not be the same as a phylogenetic tree, because
    recently differentiated groups will often share a considerable amount of incompletely
    sorted genetic characteristics. Incomplete lineage sorting is common among closely
    related species with a recent common ancestor. Wayne and Ostrander (1999) emphasize
    that, while molecular genetic data seem to support the origin of dogs from wolves, dogs
    may have descended from a now extinct species of canid whose closest living relative
    was the wolf.
    Due to descent from a common ancestor, several species have populations with
    mtDNA closer in sequence to another species than to conspecific populations (Carr et al.
    1986; Cronin, Vyse & Cameron 1988; Avise, Ankey & Nelson 1990; Cronin et al. 1991).
    There are also examples of introgressions of mtDNA between species, which could be
    misinterpreted as evidence of conspecific status if analyzed without regard to other
    diagnostic characteristics (Avise 1986; Cronin 1993).
    Wolves and DDs have been sympatric for thousands to tens of thousands of years,
    yet only one mtDNA type is shared. Although occasional hybridization may have taken
    place in some areas, panmixia has not occurred despite the fact that until the last few
    hundred years most dogs free-ranged, breeding at will (Clutton-Brock 1981; Boitani
    1983; Boitani et al. 1995; Nowak 1995; Randi & Lucchini 2002). For example, Indian
    pariah dogs are about the same size as the Indian wolf (C. l. pallipes), one of the
    candidates for the dog's "ancestral wolf" (Olsen 1985; Hemmer 1990; Corbett 1995),
    their estrus seasons coincide, the wolf population today is small and fragmented, yet they
    are not known to hybridize (Oppenheimer & Oppenheimer 1975; Shahi 1983; Pal, Gosh
    & Roy 1998). If dogs and- wolves did not have relatively effective behavioral barriers to
    interbreeding, they would share most if not all of their mtDNA types. Therefore, the dog
    and wolf seem to meet the criteria of the Biological Species Concept (O'Brien and Mayr
    1991).
    The shared or very similar mtDNA types are not necessarily of wolf origin.
    Crockford (2000) hypothesizes that the similarity of dog/wolf mtDNA could be due to
    genetic introgression of dog into the wolf population. Koop et al. (2000) found some precontact Northwest American aboriginal dogs had mtDNA types closer to North American
    wolves than to other DDs, concluding that these DDs may have originated from local
    wolves. Crockford (2000) instead hypothesizes that perhaps these mtDNA haplotypes are
    similar due to essentially rare unidirectional feral female dog to male wolf hybridization
    occurring for so long that extant wolf populations have dog mtDNA.10
    Contemporary wild wolf/dog hybrids have been collected in Alaska (B. Yates,
    personal communication 2001), Vancouver Island, B.C., Canada (Koop et al. 2000), Italy
    (Randi & Lucchini 2002) and are known from the archaeological record (Walker &
    Frison 1982). Vilà and Wayne (1999) suggest that, because of reproductive timing
    differences, the direction of wolf/dog hybridization was probably female wolves to male
    dogs (implying the shared mtDNA types are wolf). They overlook reports that show
    male wolves do breed with female dogs (Gottelli et al. 1994) and coyotes (Wayne et al.
    1991), and the offspring incorporated into the wolf population. Given the unpredictable
    behavior of wolf hybrids and the difficulty of keeping F1 hybrids confined (Gloyd 1992;
    Hope 1994; Marx 1994; Steinhart 1995) it is unlikely that prehistorically and in the recent
    past, hybrids would have successfully integrated into the DD population. Crockford
    (2000) points out that the genetic integrity of specimens used to represent wolves in most
    DNA studies are not clearly defined, and concludes that the use of contemporary wolves,
    or those from archaeological contexts, in comparative studies of mtDNA with DDs may
    be misleading due to the possibility of long-standing introgressive hybridization with
    dogs.
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  12. #12
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Civilization's best friend

    But you can breed dogs and wolves and they aren't sterile. By definition they're one species.
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  13. #13
    Nimthill's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Civilization's best friend

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    By a definition they're one species.
    From wikipedia:
    In biology, a species is one of the basic units of biological classification and a taxonomic rank. A species is often defined as a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring. While in many cases this definition is adequate, more precise or differing measures are often used, such as similarity of DNA, morphology or ecological niche. Presence of specific locally adapted traits may further subdivide species into subspecies.
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