Power Companies Bereft - Energy crisis has started

[Denny Crane!]

Probably some time ago it just isn't big news yet.

When they privatised the energy companies they created these independent bodies to keep those people happy that were worried energy companies taking advantage of a monopoly. The reality is that these bodies were never given enough power or independence to stop these huge companies taking advantage of customers.

I work in the heating industry and we are already planning for 2020, when we have been told by a representative from the gas industry that gas will not be affordable as a domestic fuel by 2020. Firstly all new homes in 2013 will not have any gas services supplied to the properties, ground source heat pumps, solar water and solar cells, wind farms etc will be used in-conjunction will electric heating etc etc

The big problem is what we do about the existing housing stock which rely heavily on natural gas as the primary fuel source for heating. No one has found a solution and more importantly the money for such a project.

Obviously using less energy is key to making gas reserves last longer and therefore keeping it cheaper for longer. There is talk about new pipelines from Russia and new reserves in the North Sea but unfortunately all the experts agree that the cost of getting it to us is going to increase significantly. When I mean significantly I mean by something like 300% over 7 years. For many people this is a nightmare as it will mean heating an average home over 12 months will exceed £3000.

So unfortunately there really isn't any good news

People have called OFGEN in the UK a useless regulatory body. How can it truly be useless when Gas prices are rising and will continue to.

Notice the figures he mentions, in 8 years Gas will not be considered an affordable resource to heat homes and at this point the UK and other cold countries are ed. Never mind the looming shortfalls in electricity.

[Claudius Gothicus]

The world needs more nuclear plants... and further investigation into Hydrogen based reactors.

[Denny Crane!]

The world needs more nuclear plants... and further investigation into Hydrogen based reactors.

Finland still hasn't been able to get its latest Nuclear reactor built, what makes you think that Britain could knock out twenty times as many in the same time period and find the vast likely overspend that happens in every new nuclear construction project?

[Claudius Gothicus]

Finland still hasn't been able to get its latest Nuclear reactor built, what makes you think that Britain could knock out twenty times as many in the same time period and find the vast likely overspend that happens in every new nuclear construction project?

Well it's clearly too late now(the amount of Engineers needed would simply be prohibitve too) so for now you should make-do.

But energetic dependance is not a joke, it's a serious problem that the world needs to eventually tackle or at least provide for. It's just too bad we are going directly into a new Recession/Stagnation right now.

[Denny Crane!]

Well it's clearly too late now(the amount of Engineers needed would simply be prohibitve too) so for now you should make-do.

But energetic dependance is not a joke, it's a serious problem that the world needs to eventually tackle or at least provide for. It's just too bad we are going directly into a new Recession/Stagnation right now.

Yes which means there is no money to invest.

Better hope for that wicked invention to come true, you know the amazing "makes a lot of energy cheaply" device.

[The excited one]

The world needs more nuclear plants... and further investigation into Hydrogen based reactors.

the hippies (most enviromentalist since some knows nuclear are safer than coal plants) across the world would have disagree with it since it can be BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMM just like a nuclear explosion and kill all the trees 100 KM across and radiation 1000 KM across which is unhealthy for the trees and now because of the stupid hippies germany had planned to abandoned nuclear by 2016 (or 2020 damn i forget it!) damn hippies and stupid enviromentalist nuclear power are freaking safe http://www.npr.org/2011/03/28/134863...ists-are-split

damn hippies

[Menelik_I]

Probably some time ago it just isn't big news yet.



People have called OFGEN in the UK a useless regulatory body. How can it truly be useless when Gas prices are rising and will continue to.

Notice the figures he mentions, in 8 years Gas will not be considered an affordable resource to heat homes and at this point the UK and other cold countries are ed. Never mind the looming shortfalls in electricity.

Don't worry the Tory government is going to solve this problem by putting Carbon Taxes and emisions requirements to raise energy prices.

If we want cheap energy prices we should drill more, and the UK should allow shale gas to be explored.

Plus instead of wasting 100 Billions per years on Quangos ... maybe that amount of money each damn year could build at least one nuclear plant.

Now excuse me, I need to rant in front of my gas bill

[Denny Crane!]

Don't worry the Tory government is going to solve this problem by putting Carbon Taxes and emisions requirements to raise energy prices.

If we want cheap energy prices we should drill more, and the UK should allow shale gas to be explored.

Plus instead of wasting 100 Billions per years on Quangos ... maybe that amount of money each damn year could build at least one nuclear plant.

Now excuse me, I need to rant in front of my gas bill

Honestly I'd rather not fund another nuclear power plant given the inherent impossibilities of building one these days for whatever reasons, they are there. The easiest way seems to be making sure we are warmer in our houses and using less.

After that I'm lost...

Edit: FYI I believe we need at least ten just to replace ones shutting down never mind new energy creation.

[Condottiere 40K]

Green based parties don't draw their supporters from just hippies, but middle class families concerned about their children's future and the environment. And the nuclear industry has done a very poor job in convincing anyone on their safety record.

[Claudius Gothicus]

Green based parties don't draw their supporters from just hippies, but middle class families concerned about their children's future and the environment. And the nuclear industry has done a very poor job in convincing anyone on their safety record.

How? only really catastrophic nuclear accident was Chernobyl and the rest is pure fuzz by sensasionalist media... I can understand that many greens draw their support from concerned middle class families, because everyone is way too ing oversensitive about the ''children and their future''.

[The excited one]

i don't know why people don't like nuclear is it because of the word "nuclear" that make those hippies hate nuclear power in the first place (you know they had some kind of a anti-nuke movement in the middle of the cold war)

[Vizsla]

2 words:

Shale gas

[Justice and Mercy]

2 words:

Shale gas

"But it's expeeensive!" is the common Chicken Little response.

Alright. So, as regular old oil prices go up (IF they go up) that won't seem like such a bad thing anymore, now will it?

[Vizsla]

"But it's expeeensive!" is the common Chicken Little response.

Alright. So, as regular old oil prices go up (IF they go up) that won't seem like such a bad thing anymore, now will it?

You’re right there.
We don’t have a choice anyway. The price of gas on the international markets is going up. Nuclear takes too long to build. Wind power doesn’t work because you need power stations running as a backup anyway for when the wind stops. So there is no choice.
The technology has improved and the price of shale has come down a lot and they’ve solved the pipe leakage problem.
Also in the plus column we have enough shale gas in the UK to supply us for decades, so hopefully we’ll have built enough nuclear or invented viable fusion by then.
Environmentalists don’t like it because it means producing more carbon dioxide and it makes renewables look expensive – because they are expensive.

[Condottiere 40K]

17 November 2011 Last updated at 11:18 GMT

Parties clash over future of nuclear power in France

The Socialists say they will phase out 24 of France's 58 reactors
Continue reading the main story
France's government has accused the opposition Socialists of planning to undermine the nuclear industry in return for Green party support.
It said the proposed closure of nearly half of France's nuclear power stations would result in soaring domestic electricity bills as well as job cuts.
Socialist presidential candidate Francois Hollande denied planning to abandon nuclear energy.
Opinion polls suggest he will defeat Nicolas Sarkozy in next year's vote.
On Tuesday, the two opposition parties sealed an electoral pact under which the Socialists will not stand in a number of constituencies, thereby giving the Greens the prospect of at least 15 seats in the new parliament.
In return, the Greens will support Mr Hollande in the expected run-off round of the presidential election.
'Safety concern' The Socialists undertook to reduce France's dependence on nuclear energy for its electricity from 75% to 50% by 2025.
Continue reading the main story French nuclear industry

• Supplies 75% of electricity
• Operates 58 power stations
• Exports both electricity and nuclear technology

• source: World Nuclear Association

This would entail the phasing out of 24 of the country's 58 reactors, though the Socialists would not agree to stop the construction of a new-generation nuclear reactor at Flamanville in western France.
Green party leader Cecile Duflot hailed the deal as a "real break with the past".

[Condottiere 40K]

In the sixties there were scare stories about mutants, in the seventies there was Three Mile Island, in the Eighties the Russians royally screwed up, in the nineties I can't recall anything really gruesome, except Homer Simpson, the noughties made us fear over security from terrorist attacks, and in this decade, the Japanese overestimated their cleverness and forgot they needed to placate the appropriate kamis of natural forces.

[Claudius Gothicus]

Yet there were no serious human losses in any of those except for the Chernobyl Disaster... which again showed that in fact the russians disregarded any kind of actually international security measure.

It's all in the irrational Enviromentalist lobby that has been punching Nuclear for at least 40 years now.

[Shaun]

The energy crisis started some time ago, perhaps when the utilities were privatised, signalling the beginning of neglect in spending of new infrastructure. In about 2016, many current power generating plant will cease to operate due to it having reached the end of its design life. We have known about this for well over a decade, yet have done absolutely nothing about it. We have not invested in new plant nor new technology.

And given the economic and budget situation the government is facing, you can guarantee that nothing will be done about it until people's lights start going off.

But by then it will be too late. It takes many years to plan, design, build and install new plant. And project management is not something that we British are generally any use at. We've also lost much of our engineering capabilities since Thatcher, too.

However, I would like a more credible source for the claims that in 8 years gas will not be an affordable source of fuel to heat homes and that in 2013 new homes will not be given gas supplies.

Regarding drilling more, that's what industry wants to do. However, the Tory lead government's tax grab has severely hampered new drilling in UK waters. Many new blocks earmarked for development are only marginal fields and will not be profitable to operate under the new tax regime - which is one of the most unstable in the world, so doesn't exactly attract new investment...

[Denny Crane!]

Nuclear Power Plants:

I've yet to see a sensible argument that favours nuclear power plants right now that factors in the cost. Can someone tell me a nuclear powerplant construction in the last 10 years that has finished to cost? I know the Finnish experience that has been so negative even though administered by the worlds leading nuclear company has put many off.

Shaun: I can't see privatisation being sensibly blamed without some serious evidence since at the time I believe energy prices dropped significantly, or evidence to say that the government would have invested more than private companies. The government has of course been investing in off shore power but I'd like to subsidies stepped up for Ground Source Heat Pumps and clear guidance given on the ROI of solar vs solar hot water vs solar.

Furthermore the increase in gas prices has been constant regardless of demand which is where the projection of gas being unaffordable comes from. I've googled it and the figure I am getting is 2016 which will mean demand increases until then and merely stagnates or doesn't increase that much but potentially still growing which means in 2020 if growth in industrial use is still going then yes we could still see a mild increase on top of another 5 years of demand increase and supply lowering. After all these new regulations only apply to new homes not the 20million (maybe? pulled that figure out of my ass) or so homes in existence.

One thing the government and councils must do and begin immediately is make sure that every home is insulated. That is a massive step forward to lowering demand and should be pursued vigorously, it is a policy with no downsides.

[Shaun]

Prices may have dropped initially after privatisation, but that came at the expense of long term thinking and commitment to new technologies that would have helped see us through when the North Sea was no longer able to support us. Privatisation essentially means short term thinking because you cannot make investments in large CAPEX projects that won't see returns for decades because investors simply aren't willing to invest in such projects. This works for many industries, but not energy because plant is inherently expensive to produce, yet obviously its product must be affordable to all.

Regarding nuclear power, I'm afraid it's the only viable solution unless people want to live in the dark. We need to realise that our energy supply at the moment almost solely comes from burning things; however, the things we burn are running out and demand for them is increasing, which is driving up the cost. This isn't sustainable and sometime soon we're going to have to make absolutely massive investment in new plant.

People will care less about the cost when their lights go out.