T-minus 24 hours

[Pontifex Maximus]

After this "I don't like the rules" won't be an excuse! Read up and suggest changes, even use this thread do discuss it if you want. As it stands right now I want all of the essential changes done so that we can start tomorrow. Other small changes can be done as we play, especially as it pertains to civil wars. Battle rules, economic rules, and the economy home rubric should be done by today which leaves us prepared to play.

[Dark Storm]

So whats the decided on financial method?

[Pontifex Maximus]

Essentially what's posted in the 2.0 rules thread right now

[Pontifex Maximus]

You will be given 5 free points. Pleb, legion, or patrician.

[Magicman2051]

2. Censor - Tiberius Antonius Commodus
3. Consul - Gaius Marius Aquila
4. Consul - Marcus Quintilius Rufus
5. Consul - Furius Philus
6. Consul - Aulus Antius Geta
7. Pro-Consul of Graecia et Asia - Appius
8. Pro-Consul of Graecia et Asia - Cilo
9. Pro-Consul of Graecia et Asia - Pansa
   
10. Pro-Consul of Hispania - Sextus Tuccius Alexander
11. Pro-Consul of Sicilia et Africa - Publilus Sempremonius Lucullus
12. Pro-Consul of Sicilia et Africa - Lucius Petrus Dextrus
    
13. Quaestor - Gnaeus Claudius Tranquillus
14. Quaestor - Severus Caecilius Metellus
15. Tribune - Quintus Antonius Lucro
16. Tribune - Septimus
17. Praetor - Triarius
18. Praetor - Gaius Commodus Graccus

[Dark Storm]

change mine to Quaestor, otherwise the game may take longer to start.

Ponti- is that 5 points as in, you can have two point ins pleb and pat and 1 in LL or 5 points as in 5 points in patrician/plebian/LL

[Magicman2051]

Divide it as you will.

[Dark Storm]

Danke schon

[Lanthe]

Damn, I might miss the start, depends on do I decide to take good night sleep or not

[Aetius]

• Legions, change the upkeep from 500k per start have it at 10000 upkeep +500 per star. Why? Because upkeep of legions is far too cheap to maintain, forming the minority of senate/personal costs. It would make paying for your soldiers are more serious deal.
  
  
• Cavalry, change the upkeep from 1 per unit to 3 per unit, for reasons stated above.
  
  
• Ok battle rules.... A lot of work can be done here, all these factors are a bit excessive and just confusing generating results that don't make sense.cfmonkey and I are working on a battle calc
  
  
• cut farm prices in half, they are overly expensive for an initial buy and offering 0 income without slaves. Also double the income made from farming due to magistrate pay reduction
  
  
• on a related note, more ways to make money would also be good. Maybe owning property in Rome...

overall, good rules, cleanly laid out.

[cfmonkey45]

Legions, change the upkeep from 500k per start have it at 10000 upkeep +500 per star. Why? Because upkeep of legions is far too cheap to maintain, forming the minority of senate/personal costs. It would make paying for your soldiers are more serious deal.


Cavalry, change the upkeep from 1 per unit to 3 per unit, for reasons stated above.

That seems to be too much.

Ok battle rules.... A lot of work can be done here, all these factors are a bit excessive and just confusing generating results that don't make sense.cfmonkey and I are working on a battle calc

Yes. I have a bit of it sketched out already.

Each unit has 6 traits, 2, offensive and defensive, in 3 categories, fire, shock, and morale. In each phase of the battle, there is an attack and counter attack phase where the troops firstly fire their missiles (bows, javelins, etc.) and then the charge. Attackers use offensive morale, defenders use defensive. Then, after the initial phase is completed, it switches to allow a counter-attack.

Thus, a battle would go as follows, between Gallic Barbarians and a Roman Legion:

Barbarians (O.Fire: 2, D.Fire:0|O.Shock: 5, D.Shock: 2|O.Morale: 5, D.Morale:1)
Romans (O.Fire: 2, D.Fire:2|O.Shock: 4, D.Shock: 4|O.Morale: 4, D.Morale:3)

Barbarians have superior offensive morale and attack, with comparable javelin abilities. However, their forces are largely ad hoc and undisciplined. Thus, they can energize themselves into massive and powerful charges, but will be unable to sustain combat for too long due to their lack of organization and leadership.

By contrast, the Roman Legionaries of Legio I Italica, despite being raw recruits, are issued standard armor that can repel most projectiles. Further, their larger shields and superior discipline give them an advantage in close quarters combat. Yet, Rome prefers the shorter gladius to longer swords, which limits the reach of infantry, and further, their discipline requires them to be sober, both literally and figuratively, and thus without as much zeal in their initial charges.

Barbarians Attack
Phase 1: 2 to 2

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Javelin attack ineffective

Phase 2: 5 to 4

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Charge Effective

Roman Morale Check:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Check Passed

Roman Counter-attack

Phase 1: 4 to 2

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Attack Successful

Barbarian Morale Check:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Check Failed (-1) - Barbarian Line falters


Barbarian Attack - 2

Phase 1: 5(-1) to 4

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Attack Successful

Roman Morale Check

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Check Passed

Roman Counter-attack

Phase 1: 4 to 2

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Attack Successful

Barbarian Morale Check:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Check Failed (-3) - Barbarian Line Collapsed



Obviously there can be modifiers here. I hope to add 1 point to morale for every legionary star. Further, this will come with a builder, not necessarily for Romans, but for barbarians and mercenaries (such as Parthian Cataphracts compared to Numidian Light Cavalry and Cretan Archers) for distinction.

cut farm prices in half, they are overly expensive for an initial buy and offering 0 income without slaves. Also double the income made from farming due to magistrate pay reduction

Agreed. Further, I think we should be able to own property in other provinces.

on a related note, more ways to make money would also be good. Maybe owning property in Rome...

overall, good rules, cleanly laid out.

Indeed, that is how Crassus got his wealth.

Marcus Licinius Crassus' next concern was to rebuild the fortunes of his family, which had been confiscated during the Marian-Cinnan proscriptions. Sulla's own proscriptions ensured that his survivors would recoup their lost fortunes from the fortunes of wealthy adherents to Gaius Marius or Lucius Cornelius Cinna. Proscriptions meant that their political enemies lost their fortunes and their lives; that their female relatives (notably, widows and widowed daughters) were forbidden to remarry; and that in some cases, their families' hopes of rebuilding their fortunes and political significance were destroyed. Crassus is said to have made part of his money from proscriptions, notably the proscription of one man whose name was not initially on the list of those proscribed but was added by Crassus who coveted the man's fortune.[

The rest of Crassus' wealth was acquired more conventionally, through traffic in slaves, the working of silver mines, and judicious purchases of land and houses, especially those of proscribed citizens. Most notorious was his acquisition of burning houses: when Crassus received word that a house was on fire, he would arrive and purchase the doomed property along with surrounding buildings for a modest sum, and then employ his army of 500 clients to put the fire out before much damage had been done. Crassus' clients employed the Roman method of firefighting—destroying the burning building to curtail the spread of the flames

[Double A]

I thought upkeep is cheap because it was cheap. Hard to find and train men, easier to keep them as soldiers.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Legion upkeep can never be that high

[Aetius]

Legion upkeep can never be that high

Ok but they can be higher, private legions were a bit too common last time, upkeep is very expensive part of having armies. Only rich men could afford private legions.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Ok but they can be higher, private legions were a bit too common last time, upkeep is very expensive part of having armies. Only rich men could afford private legions.

We've already balanced that by halving all incomes from magistracies.

[Aetius]

We've already balanced that by halving all incomes from magistracies.

On base pay you can afford to maintain the upkeep of 10 legions...

10 legions.

[cfmonkey45]

We've already balanced that by halving all incomes from magistracies.

Well, I think legionary income needs to be increased, otherwise, these purchases become pointless:

Legion will forgo pay for one year: -2 points
Paying for the upkeep of any legion: .5 points
-2 points: All upkeep for legions increased by 5%

Right now, you can pay for the upkeep of 10 legions with just your senatorial income




By the way, regarding this rule:

Influence legions to remain loyal to the senate or private legions to generals fighting in the Senate's interests (Must be done before the legion is claimed, does not apply retroactively): 10 points

That was increased from 5 to 10, which I do not think is a good idea. Patrician points were very difficult to come by last game (I think most people had around 8), so I don't think that its purchases need to be inflated.

[Double A]

We are rich men.

[The Stig]

Exactly. we can haz moneyz

[Pontifex Maximus]

If you had 300,000 extra to raise 10 private legions upkeep is probably not the broken element of that situation.