how to fight infantry?

[ash874]

tatw was a lot harder than ss among other things because in tatw the bad guys had infantry heavy armies.
and just as i had no answer to it back then, i have no answer to it now

i met an army of beastmen at what i thought would be a great strategic point for me
(look in the pic)
the handgunners were not stationed as you see them.
- what you see is my maneuver after the enemy infantry closed in
before that they stood like this \----/ more or less (--- is the helberdiers)
so before the enemy closed in (and i dont know if its easy to in the pic) i checked how much my ranged soldiers killed.
the answer is 4%
they didnt do anything
and its on m/m difficulty
i dont understand in what better position could i have put them
my conclusion is that they are not worth anything
in fact i wish i had skirmishers like in the regular game because they would do much more dmg once the helberdiers got the enemy stuck
can it be that a javelin thrower is better than a handgunner?


edit: the dwarves declared war on the confederacy
it really ruins the vibe for me
is there a way i can force a truce (cheat or whatever)?

[Ozzmosis]

Have two units of cannons per army and you're sorted
I like to counter infantry armies with knights, myself.
Nothing like a nice big charge of Panther Knights into the ranks of Beastmen!

[ash874]

Have two units of cannons per army and you're sorted
I like to counter infantry armies with knights, myself.
Nothing like a nice big charge of Panther Knights into the ranks of Beastmen!

my computer sucks which means i play on small unit settings
that in turn means i have only 25 riders of any kind
so even small dmg to the unit will turn it to almost nothing
i know you guys do retrain
but i dont really understand how it works
i dont think it always returns the unit to full power
or does it?

[ash874]

i was expecting a msg that i won the game...
i have enough cities and everything

[Ichon]

Gunpowder units do not seem quite as effective compared to SS but over time in the right position they are still good, the main issue seems they have to have a much closer range to be effective. Really though they seem not worth it compared to most other units as almost all enemies you will fight excel in close range combat. The morale shock of the gunpowder seems most useful. Cannons and mortars on a bridge battle would be quite useful though. Gunpowder are not quite like crossbows and have a bit less predictable effects.

Do Wissenburg's win conditions require just capturing the cities or capturing and holding them for certain number of turns? You are only on turn 48.

[ash874]

Gunpowder units do not seem quite as effective compared to SS but over time in the right position they are still good, the main issue seems they have to have a much closer range to be effective. Really though they seem not worth it compared to most other units as almost all enemies you will fight excel in close range combat. The morale shock of the gunpowder seems most useful. Cannons and mortars on a bridge battle would be quite useful though. Gunpowder are not quite like crossbows and have a bit less predictable effects.

Do Wissenburg's win conditions require just capturing the cities or capturing and holding them for certain number of turns? You are only on turn 48.

the moral effect is quite meaningless
in this battle the enemy routed only when their general died
as i said i play on m/m (my first game)
so on vhvh not only that they would do no dmg but also their moral effect would be negated

the winning conditions im not sure about because it says for instance: Nuin (60 turns)
i guess it means i should be holding it for 60 turns

the main problem is that i cant think of any good strategy against enemy heavy infantry which would not require a lot of micro managment in every single battle

[BigHairyMelon]

Fully upgraded Empire infantry tend to be very good at killing things in close combat. If you don't like using cavalry use halberdiers or spearmen with their special ability turned on to hold a line, both will do this well unless they are up against things like black orcs where they will take a lot of casualties, have some swordsmen in behind your first line, then move them to the flanks and hit the enemy infantry that are already engaged, I have found that empire swordsmen with full Armour and weapons with at least 3 experience tend to destroy most infantry especially beastmen armies. and also as people have said have cannons and at least some crossbows. The good thing about enemy infantry heave armies is that they lack mobility so they wont be getting behind your lines and charging you, which allows you to circle them and destroy them. As for your victory conditions the number of turns in brackets means you have to hold the city for that number of turns so you still have at least 42 turns left.

[Maha Moggalana]

if you play as Wissenburg , you will have best siege engines of the empire . So add 2 or 3 mortars to your stack (1 is ineffective) . Aim to the general or the most dense area of fighting .
To boost the morale when your troop hit by your own mortar , place the general near the place your will bombard (don't too close) or have the altar of Sigmar .

[Klierowski]

In CoW there is a great bug - only first line of ranged unit shoots -rest just stand and don't do nothing...

[Ichon]

The morale effect still matters on bridge battle. Not as much as on open where u can move the guns behind but it helps. I think mortars will be what you want to use more as empire. 1-2 would have had 50-100 each kills on small size as well chance to kill enemy general. Halberdiers and mortars should be the basis of most empire armies. Some swordsmen and cavalry to flank or ogres etc also help. Empire requires about the least micro of any. Only high elves are maybe less. The downfall of heavy infantry is speed. As empire you have good cavalry, artillery and line infantry not as good archers and melee.

[Ekaddon]

and just as i had no answer to it back then, i have no answer to it now

The answer for open field battle is halberdiers, archers and 2-4 units of cavalry. Artillery is a bonus, but i rarely have more that one unit (most likely mortar). Simply draw up a long line, have archers in front, pull them back at the last moment. As they can fire in volleys they can still engage the enemy from behind units (same with mortar against larger units even when they are in melee!). When the enemy has reached your troops simply charge cavalry into the enemy from behind. A good General is a must whenever possible!

i dont understand in what better position could i have put them

I always place them so that the unit is as long and thin as possible (= 2 man ranks i think). In bridge battles the \----/ works well for me. But archers are cheaper and more usefull (or crossbows).

edit: the dwarves declared war on the confederacy
it really ruins the vibe for me
is there a way i can force a truce (cheat or whatever)?

Look for "Forced diplomacy".

the main problem is that i cant think of any good strategy against enemy heavy infantry which would not require a lot of micro managment in every single battle

This is a problem, since to break heavy infantry you need multiple charges from cavalry. I dont really like the fast pace either but you get used to it if you want to win. Oh and i play only vh/vh so should fork for m/m too.

[ash874]

thanks for all the advice guys

[Ichon]

So far in over a hundred battles in CoW there are less than handful that handgun had high kill ratio when not shooting at zombies. The battles where they did well were on a steep hill or rise where they had elevation over front line, good line of sight, and plenty of time to use their ammo. Most of the time however the the Chaos and other armies are melee oriented which means the battle is usually over before the handgunners can have much effect due to their slow fire rate.

Archers tend to do much better on average though do have a cap on max kill. Never had any empire archers kill over 300 on large size for example but had Thunderers do that a couple times in really long battle where they fired most of their ammo. Mortars I have had close to 1000 kills (typical is 100-300)so they are by far best ranged. Mortars rarely win battles by themselves but with protection and some cavalry they are very effective.

[Diocle]

In my experience the AI concentrate its attaks on handgunners, so I deploy them in the frontline followed by one unit of pikes and pikes or spears on each side, the enemy units remain blocked in melee with my rear pikes when I retire my poor handgunners then I attak them on the flanks, so with 2 units of handguns and 5 or more spear\pikes you have the opportunity of disrupting the enemy's attak line and this, in the massive attaks of beastmen or orks, is a good point. Obviously the casualties among hanguns are heavy but this is the war.
The armour of human melee units must ever be upgraded, if not, there is no chance with heavy not human enemy.

[ash874]

cant we all just get along...

[Diocle]

To ash874: me and I think all the Imperials around here are with you in this dark and glorious moment!!!!
I think you have 3 choises: 1) Give up, restart with another faction. 2) Last stand, for Honour, Sigmar and Glory! 3) Attack the nearest and kill them!!...and then attack and kill and attack and kill and attack and kill, kill, kill, KILLL THEM ALLL!!!!!!!!!
The first time I saw all that Greenskins coming against me, I cowardly (well I'm Italian...spaghetti, good people..) thought: "maybe they pass and attack someone near me "....... Illusions! they are here for you baby!!!! If you do not kill them they'll kill you, this is not Total War this is Warhammer!!!
I hate this mod but I cannot stop fighting!!!

[Ekaddon]

cant we all just get along...

Well luckily they are not after you.. Not all of them

[Iguanaonastick]

As for missile troops: also note that their effectiveness varies wildly depending on the opposition. Beastmen field hordes of cheap, widely dispersed and weak infantry. Their good infantry has multiple hitpoints to boot, making ranged attacks fairly useless against them. So against these foes your missile troops and even your warmachines are going to be relatively unimportant. Your halberdiers and spearmen and knights though will kill them by the hundreds.

Against Chaos though it is the other way around. They have small armies full of elite close-combat warriors that can tear your army to pieces in mêlée. In this situation your cannon will be king, the hellstorm rocket battery emperor. Handgunners also become much better. For example in my battle against Archaon's stack, which was also a bridge battle of my heir with one Imperial stack against Archaon with one stack of elite warriors and one stack of elite demons, my handgunners were crucial. After my infantry had been vaporized by Chaos wizards, my knights mauled by demons, my wizards were out of power and my cannon out of ammunition (except for grapeshot) my handgunners still held the bridge, breaking the morale of unit after unit. They even shot and killed Archaon himself. I still lost the battle as the Nurgle demons finally arrived, but without gunpowder troops I doubt I would have lasted half as long as I did.

Basically I agree with Ichon: Handgunners won't win the battle for you often, but in the right circumstances they can help a lot.

I have to say though that I never managed to get great results out of mortars in my games. Empire mortars, that is. The Kislev one is great with the explosive shot. But the Empire mortars only seem to knock enemies down half the time. Cannon are more accurate and the explosive shot inflicts lots more damage. It's possible I don't know how use mortars to their greatest effect though

[Ichon]

I have to say though that I never managed to get great results out of mortars in my games. Empire mortars, that is. The Kislev one is great with the explosive shot. But the Empire mortars only seem to knock enemies down half the time. Cannon are more accurate and the explosive shot inflicts lots more damage. It's possible I don't know how use mortars to their greatest effect though

Are you getting good results out of the non xp empire cannons? I've tried to use them in field battles and while they aren't horrible they seem much less reliable than the mortars. In city defense the cannons are awesome obviously.

With mortars I find giving a bit of elevation or a long time to fire gives the best results. Enemy missile units are slaughtered as they stop to shoot giving mortars perfect targets. Also enemy sorcerers etc can be taken mostly out with mortars. I find it better to send cavalry to deal with enemy artillery as the mortars aren't quite accurate enough to take out the whole artillery crew before it can make substantial losses on your own army. Also any troops bunched up mortars tear apart. I find everything except chaos and undead fall to the mortars and cannons. Undead the main threat is their cavalry which moves too fast and is too small for artillery to target effectively. Chaos mostly the same way though some Chaos armies are more vulnerable than others. Dark Elves are still vulnerable as they lack much cavalry but have nearly 1/3 or more of their armies of missile units which stop and bunch up to shoot making them easy targets for mortars.

Handgunners... I've tried using all different ways and in some battles they do well and in others which seemed a very similar situation they do poorly so in light of their cost compared to other Empire units- Pistoliers can be the only handguns in an Empire army as far as I am concerned.

Dwarves are different because they can actually hold up in melee more than Empire giving the Thunderers etc plenty of time to use up ammo.

[Kurgis]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=406339

It dosen't have all the answers - but read away ash874 there's some hints and tips in those posts.